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Where should I start? 
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Post Re: Where should I start?
darthyoshi wrote:

I'm kind of surprised that you think A Clockwork Orange is more accessible than Apocalypse Now. I think the latter is much more in line with traditional Hollywood than ACO.


Hmmm. Certainly the themes of A Clockwork Orange are a little more sophisticated than those of Apocalypse Now. All the same, I see something more universally critical in Coppola's film. An argument, and a good one, could be made that A Clockwork Orange has fewer points of entry. It comes down to immersion, I suspect; A Clockwork Orange has something akin to delight in it. It's disturbing, energetic, and endlessly shifting gears. Apocalypse Now is so much slower; this could be confused for "more thoughtful" but it's likely more meditative than anything else. It seems like this could be a turn-off for some. Maybe it isn't -- these are two widely watched and appreciated films. For the record: I'd watch A Clockwork Orange over Apocalypse Now almost any day of the week. They're both in my floating list of top-20 films of all time, however. They both seem fairly atypical of Hollywood but, you're right, ACO is less Hollywood than 99.9% of all movies.

darthyoshi wrote:
About Heart of Darkness... It is sad, isn't it? This is one of the greatest literary accomplishments of all time, and most people forsake it for the Sparknotes or ignore it altogether. Sigh...


Heart of Darkness and The Shadow Line, both by Conrad, are two major works by a man who had a true command of language. They're spectacular and challenging -- everyone should take a look. But, then again, everyone should be reading at least a few great works of literature every year. I don't know if this would fix the world but I believe it would furnish some kindling for a fairly incurious bunch of people (I'm looking at you, America). All the begging in the world won't get people to pick up a copy of Ada, or Ardor (available at your local library in the fiction section under Nabokov). Then again, all the begging in the world won't get people to run out and pick up a copy of 2001. This is probably why darthyoshi is headed off to UC Berkeley and my cousin is headed over to the soup kitchen to do his community service.


Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:08 am
Post Re: Where should I start?
Robert Holloway wrote:
If our regular readers don't mind I'm going to resist altering Calvero's excellent list

I am sure we can all find the odd switch but overall it's very good.

Unless there is mass howling from the gallery about an egregious brain lapse, let's let it rest for a while

I hope people find it useful

Rob


I agree, leave it as it is. The list is more than fine. Every single one of us probably has minor quibbles, but it's not enough to go and edit the list. Besides, I doubt we'd ever reach a consensus.

That said, I'm enjoying the discussion about where certain movies should have been placed. Doesn't mean we need to change anything but I like hearing what people have to say about it.


Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
majoraphasia wrote:
Hmmm. Certainly the themes of A Clockwork Orange are a little more sophisticated than those of Apocalypse Now. All the same, I see something more universally critical in Coppola's film. An argument, and a good one, could be made that A Clockwork Orange has fewer points of entry. It comes down to immersion, I suspect; A Clockwork Orange has something akin to delight in it. It's disturbing, energetic, and endlessly shifting gears. Apocalypse Now is so much slower; this could be confused for "more thoughtful" but it's likely more meditative than anything else. It seems like this could be a turn-off for some. Maybe it isn't -- these are two widely watched and appreciated films. For the record: I'd watch A Clockwork Orange over Apocalypse Now almost any day of the week. They're both in my floating list of top-20 films of all time, however. They both seem fairly atypical of Hollywood but, you're right, ACO is less Hollywood than 99.9% of all movies.

Heart of Darkness and The Shadow Line, both by Conrad, are two major works by a man who had a true command of language. They're spectacular and challenging -- everyone should take a look. But, then again, everyone should be reading at least a few great works of literature every year. I don't know if this would fix the world but I believe it would furnish some kindling for a fairly incurious bunch of people (I'm looking at you, America). All the begging in the world won't get people to pick up a copy of Ada, or Ardor (available at your local library in the fiction section under Nabokov). Then again, all the begging in the world won't get people to run out and pick up a copy of 2001. This is probably why darthyoshi is headed off to UC Berkeley and my cousin is headed over to the soup kitchen to do his community service.


Now that I think about it, it is possible that some people will be turned off of Apocalypse Now. I once tried watching it with some friends who had never seen it before, and they all got bored and turned it off about 45 minutes in. I was disappointed. I never had any trouble with Apocalypse now, at least in terms of sitting through it, and I usually don't with movies in general. It takes a lot to bore me to the point of turning something off. I guess that's uncommon.

I love Conrad. For a guy that learned English as his 3rd language, I have to say that he has a better command of the language than most.

BTW, I'm going to Santa Clara University for engineering and music. You were close :) .


Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:44 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
ed_metal_head wrote:
Robert Holloway wrote:
If our regular readers don't mind I'm going to resist altering Calvero's excellent list

I am sure we can all find the odd switch but overall it's very good.

Unless there is mass howling from the gallery about an egregious brain lapse, let's let it rest for a while

I hope people find it useful

Rob


I agree, leave it as it is. The list is more than fine. Every single one of us probably has minor quibbles, but it's not enough to go and edit the list. Besides, I doubt we'd ever reach a consensus.

That said, I'm enjoying the discussion about where certain movies should have been placed. Doesn't mean we need to change anything but I like hearing what people have to say about it.


me too

Actually there's about ten people who hang around here and i hang onto just about every post you make :-)

Huge learning curve for me listening to all this stuff
thanks
Rob


Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:24 pm
Post Re: Where should I start?
majoraphasia wrote:
For the record: I'd watch A Clockwork Orange over Apocalypse Now almost any day of the week. They're both in my floating list of top-20 films of all time, however. They both seem fairly atypical of Hollywood but, you're right, ACO is less Hollywood than 99.9% of all movies.



I agree that I like 'A Clockwork Orange' more (that film sits at #20 on my Top 100, whereas 'Apocalypse Now' occupies the #63 spot). It is essentially a better film in that it is much tighter and has less obvious flaws than Coppola's film, which will never in any edition be a truly flawless classic. 'A Clockwork Orange' never lags, whereas the finale of 'Apocalypse Now' is a constant, unflagging bore. Nevertheless, it is the most thematically rich war film of all time, regardless of how lazily grotesque the ending is, instilling daring philosophy and an intelligent plotline where most war films insert guns, realistic battle conditions, and rely on the viewer to create implications. The constant fear of the soul drives 'Apocalypse Now', which accounts for why I love it even though it has such a huge flaw; it is the '2001', as far as thematics and visual poetry are concerned, of the war film, and even if it fails to reach that film's level by several notches, it is nevertheless supremely engrossing.


Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:43 am
Post Re: Where should I start?
Evenflow8112 wrote:
I agree that I like 'A Clockwork Orange' more (that film sits at #20 on my Top 100, whereas 'Apocalypse Now' occupies the #63 spot). It is essentially a better film in that it is much tighter and has less obvious flaws than Coppola's film, which will never in any edition be a truly flawless classic. 'A Clockwork Orange' never lags, whereas the finale of 'Apocalypse Now' is a constant, unflagging bore. Nevertheless, it is the most thematically rich war film of all time, regardless of how lazily grotesque the ending is, instilling daring philosophy and an intelligent plotline where most war films insert guns, realistic battle conditions, and rely on the viewer to create implications. The constant fear of the soul drives 'Apocalypse Now', which accounts for why I love it even though it has such a huge flaw; it is the '2001', as far as thematics and visual poetry are concerned, of the war film, and even if it fails to reach that film's level by several notches, it is nevertheless supremely engrossing.


The only bone of contention I've got is with AN's finale being a bore. I see it as a submission to the insanity promised by the rest of the film. That being said, I understand why it's generally regarded as the weakest segment of the film (Redux's additional scenes, for the moment, being ignored) -- it's a little bit didactic of Coppola to sermonize for an additional 20 minutes. I forgive him, all the same, seeing that he himself had gone insane during the filming. It's all a big, grotesque testament to how much of a beast the film is and how awful it must have been to witness the birth of such an epic. Poor Martin Sheen, suffering a heart attack on the set... I wear my respect for the entire film with no small thanks to Hearts of Darkness. I would never have known what a nightmare the filming was without it. It's the closest a war film (as Evenflow has put better than I) has ever come to poetics.

A Clockwork Orange is one of two supreme works by a filmmaker that never tried to do the same thing twice. It stands alone: entertaining, frightening, visceral, disgusting... geez, the adjectives could go on. Roger Ebert gave it 2 1/2 stars and claimed he found himself "standing outside" of the film. That can only be a healthy thing: why would you want to associate yourself with a person like Alex DeLarge?


Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:21 am
Post Re: Where should I start?
Pedro wrote:
Is it just me or are there nine movies missing from the list? I didn't see The Mirror in there, which DEFINITELY belongs in advanced. Really, it's the last Tarkovsky film you should see, and it's arguable it's the last film you should watch on the journey because it's ridiculously hard to appreciate.


Apparently Pedro is the only one of us who can count. ;) There are still 8 movies missing from the list. I guess those are the ones that calvero hasn't seen, so he may not have included them :?:

Anyone care to try sorting them into a category?


Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:21 pm
Post Re: Where should I start?
ed_metal_head wrote:
Pedro wrote:
Is it just me or are there nine movies missing from the list? I didn't see The Mirror in there, which DEFINITELY belongs in advanced. Really, it's the last Tarkovsky film you should see, and it's arguable it's the last film you should watch on the journey because it's ridiculously hard to appreciate.


Apparently Pedro is the only one of us who can count. ;) There are still 8 movies missing from the list. I guess those are the ones that calvero hasn't seen, so he may not have included them :?:

Anyone care to try sorting them into a category?


The General - Introductory
Last Year at Marienbad - Advanced
Playtime - Advanced
Letter From an Unknown Woman - I don't know enough about it to say
Voyage in Italy - Again, I don't know
L' Age D' Or - Advanced
Open City - Another unknown for me, but based on my limited knowledge I'd say Intermediate
The Man With the Movie Camera - Intermediate

Those are the eight that are missing. Feel free to change my classification as you see fit.


Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:44 pm
Post Re: Where should I start?
Zeppelin wrote:
ed_metal_head wrote:
Pedro wrote:
Is it just me or are there nine movies missing from the list? I didn't see The Mirror in there, which DEFINITELY belongs in advanced. Really, it's the last Tarkovsky film you should see, and it's arguable it's the last film you should watch on the journey because it's ridiculously hard to appreciate.


Apparently Pedro is the only one of us who can count. ;) There are still 8 movies missing from the list. I guess those are the ones that calvero hasn't seen, so he may not have included them :?:

Anyone care to try sorting them into a category?


The General - Introductory
Last Year at Marienbad - Advanced
Playtime - Advanced
Letter From an Unknown Woman - I don't know enough about it to say
Voyage in Italy - Again, I don't know
L' Age D' Or - Advanced
Open City - Another unknown for me, but based on my limited knowledge I'd say Intermediate
The Man With the Movie Camera - Intermediate

Those are the eight that are missing. Feel free to change my classification as you see fit.


Hi Zepp
I agree with all your assessments

I'd add Letter and Voyage to introductory,

I'll update the list

Rob


Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:26 pm
Post Re: Where should I start?
Aw what the hell:

10) Glory or maybe Shawshank or maybe Wonder Boys
9) Brazil
8) Blade Runner
7) A Clockwork Orange
6) Stranger than Fiction (2006)
5) My Favorite Year
4) The Hudsucker Proxy
3) Manhattan
2) Gattaca
1) Joe vs the Volcano

1-6 are a def. 7-10 are negotiable :)


Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:01 am
Post Re: Where should I start?
MrGuinness wrote:
Aw what the hell:

10) Glory or maybe Shawshank or maybe Wonder Boys
9) Brazil
8) Blade Runner
7) A Clockwork Orange
6) Stranger than Fiction (2006)
5) My Favorite Year
4) The Hudsucker Proxy
3) Manhattan
2) Gattaca
1) Joe vs the Volcano

1-6 are a def. 7-10 are negotiable :)


Errr...this isn't the thread for a top 10 list...unless this post has some double meaning that went over my head. Thanks for sharing though.


Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:37 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
Maybe I'm more of a philistine than I thought: of the films Calvero listed as "advanced," I've seen 10 but only really liked two of them. Moreover, the two I like (Apocalypse Now and Aguire, the Wrath of God) are among the most accessible in my opinion, though the consensus on this thread seems to be that Coppola's film isn't nearly as easy to get into as I found it.

Wow I can't believe Hirshima mon amour is on there, since I thought it was a completely failed film, a combination of documentary (on the atomic bomb no less) and love story that goes together about as well as candy corn and foie gras. To quote another film in the 'advanced' list, "it doesn't have the merits of an avant-garde film, but it has all the drawbacks."

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Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:17 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
Quote:
Wow I can't believe Hirshima mon amour is on there, since I thought it was a completely failed film, a combination of documentary (on the atomic bomb no less) and love story that goes together about as well as candy corn and foie gras. To quote another film in the 'advanced' list, "it doesn't have the merits of an avant-garde film, but it has all the drawbacks."


you should post your thoughts on it here.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1349


Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
Im confused as to what this list is. Is it just a random list of movies or what?


Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:55 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
According to Robert Holloway in a separate post,
Quote:
It was compiled from the votes of 1825 film critics and people involved with the movie industry.


But I'm also a little fuzzy on where they got it from and why it's in this forum as "The Great Movies" when there are many other fairly authoritative such lists (e.g. the AFI's version)

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Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:26 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
JamesKunz wrote:
According to Robert Holloway in a separate post,
Quote:
It was compiled from the votes of 1825 film critics and people involved with the movie industry.


But I'm also a little fuzzy on where they got it from and why it's in this forum as "The Great Movies" when there are many other fairly authoritative such lists (e.g. the AFI's version)


I'm lazy, so I'm not going to provide links, but I'll give you brief history. The list is from theyshootpicturesdontthey.com. They redo the top 1000 every year. Rob was put on to this by another poster (forget who, sorry), and he started a "journey" through the Top 100 films on the list. Afterwards, he thought it would be a good idea to make this subforum to discuss the films because his thread detailing his "journey" was pretty popular.

He used this list, I think, simply because he found it to be good. I remember him lauding it as the best list he'd ever come across. So, he used it.

The problem with AFI's list is that it only incorporates American films. You get no foreign flavor by using that list.

Hope this helps. If not, search for Holloway's Cinematic Journey thread in the General Movie Discussion forum for more info.


Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:03 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
Quote:
TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films listing has undergone its annual upgrade. It is now based on 1,825 critics/reviewers' and filmmakers' top-10 lists, culled from many sources. Additionally, we have also factored in over 900 magazine polls, film institute polls, and many other polls of interest.


http://www.theyshootpictures.com/index.htm

You can find this list of all sources they used(AFI was one of them) here:

http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000 ... 0films.htm

and from the pdf file on that page:

Quote:
THE SOURCE: Within our database, we classify each critic/filmmaker (whose top-tens we have used for calculating The 1,000 Greatest Films listing) as either a Highly Respected Critic/Filmmaker, a Respected Critic/Filmmaker or a Low Profile Critic/Filmmaker.

- Some examples of our Highly Respected Critic/Filmmaker category are Alex Cox, Andrew Sarris, Catherine Breillat and Geoff Andrew.
Generally-speaking, these are very well-known names amongst most film buffs.

- Some examples of our Respected Critic/Filmmaker category are Godfrey Cheshire, Howard Feinstein and Jim Emerson.
These are, generally-speaking, critics/filmmakers, with not an overly high profile, who have been asked to contribute top-tens to reputable polls by, for example, Sight & Sound.

- The Low Profile Critic/Filmmakers category comprises primarily those who have contributed top-ten lists to Senses of Cinema's ongoing poll, The Cinematheque's Top 10 Project and to YMDB.
It is fairly safe to say, that the higher the Low Profile percentage is, the more appeal this film has to younger audiences and/or critics/filmmakers who have yet to leave their 'mark'.

We have attempted, rather diligently, to categorise each critic/filmmaker as best we can, using whatever knowledge we have.

We appreciate, however, that this categorisation process of ours is ludicrously subjective and perhaps even a little silly.


from another pdf file(which has a list of all the titles in the top 1000 & the list of critics/polls that were used to put the film on the list)

Quote:
The December 2008 version of TSPDT's 1,000 Greatest Films is primarily based on 1,825 critics and filmmaker's All-Time Best lists (ranging from 1952 to 2008). That's 221 more lists than our December 2007 update.

Also factored in (though, to a much lesser degree) are 912 miscellaneous lists (256 more than the December 2007 update). Please note that, in some cases, certain 'dubious' lists are not factored in at all, eg. "Maxim's 100 Greatest Guy Movies Ever Made" or "O Magazine's 50 Greatest Chick Flicks." We have simply noted a film's appearance in these lists for reference purposes only, and for our own amusement.

Whilst perusing this document, keep in mind that we use a reasonably complicated set of formulas to come up with the Top-1000, from a starting list of over 7,000 films. These formulas take into account, amongst other things, the quality/reputation of the critic/filmmaker/miscellaneous poll, the age of the poll (e.g., the 2002 Sight and Sound
poll is weighted higher than the 1992 poll), whether a film has stood the test of time (yes, as you may have suspected, we do mark recent films harder), etc, etc.


Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I also have that problem with the AFI list, so this one seems interesting.

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Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Where should I start?
PeachyPete wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
According to Robert Holloway in a separate post,
Quote:
It was compiled from the votes of 1825 film critics and people involved with the movie industry.


But I'm also a little fuzzy on where they got it from and why it's in this forum as "The Great Movies" when there are many other fairly authoritative such lists (e.g. the AFI's version)


I'm lazy, so I'm not going to provide links, but I'll give you brief history. The list is from theyshootpicturesdontthey.com. They redo the top 1000 every year. Rob was put on to this by another poster (forget who, sorry), and he started a "journey" through the Top 100 films on the list. Afterwards, he thought it would be a good idea to make this subforum to discuss the films because his thread detailing his "journey" was pretty popular.

He used this list, I think, simply because he found it to be good. I remember him lauding it as the best list he'd ever come across. So, he used it.

The problem with AFI's list is that it only incorporates American films. You get no foreign flavor by using that list.

Hope this helps. If not, search for Holloway's Cinematic Journey thread in the General Movie Discussion forum for more info.


I will add that James Berardinelli is one of the thousand plus critics whose opinion counted towards the list.

Quote:
Rob was put on to this by another poster (forget who, sorry)


8-)


Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:16 pm
Post Re: Where should I start?
ed_metal_head wrote:
Rob was put on to this by another poster (forget who, sorry)

8-)


Should have known. It seems like everything cool on this forum comes from the mind of Mr. Ed. :lol:, Mr. Ed


Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:10 am
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