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American Politics 
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Auteur
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Post Re: American Politics
Shade2 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
She hasn't posted any "inaccurate facts"


She said, word-for-word: "If you already have insurance, Obamacare is not taking it away." That's a lie. Or she's an idiot and doesn't know what she's talking about. One or the other.

Vexer wrote:
I fail to see anything "asinine" or "insulting" about the system.


I didn't say the system was insulting; what's insulting is that our President claims this will help everyone when it clearly does not, and there's no evidence it helps any more people than the old system did.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence that it helps people a hell of a lot more then the old system did, it's certainly helped out my family a great deal.

So no, it isn't a lie nor is she an "idiot".

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115403/obamacare-plan-cancellation-letters-cynical-republican-hypocrisy


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:31 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Vexer wrote:
You seem to be the one who lives in a "little corner"


What little corner do I live in? If I said all democratic liberals are "hipster, gay, socialist, tree hugging, poor people who live off the government" than I would live in your corner. But I don't think that. In fact, I'm about to go watch our basketball team get stomped by Kentucky with one of my good bros who is actually a democrat.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:33 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Vexer wrote:
She hasn't posted any "inaccurate facts" and I fail to see anything "asinine" or "insulting" about the system.


Really?!?!!?!?! So when she flat out says:
Quote:
If you already have insurance, Obamacare is not taking it away.

That is not a lie? If Obamacare had never been passed, then Shade (and millions like him) would have still had their catastrophic policies canceled on them?

Is this what you are really saying here? Really?!?! What color is the sky in your world?


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:33 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Vexer wrote:
Yes, there is plenty of evidence that it helps people a hell of a lot more then the old system did, it's certainly helped out my family a great deal.


Great for you and your family. My costs have doubled (that is to say gone up 100%), while my parents' costs have tripled. I'm certainly not alone.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:36 pm
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Post Re: American Politics


Is it possible for you to post a link to a credible news site that isn't a bastion of left wing propaganda?


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:39 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Johnny Larue wrote:


Is it possible for you to post a link to a credible news site that isn't a bastion of left wing propaganda?

New Republic is not left-wing "propaganda", they've tackled conversative subjects as well.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:48 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
You seem to be the one who lives in a "little corner"


What little corner do I live in? If I said all democratic liberals are "hipster, gay, socialist, tree hugging, poor people who live off the government" than I would live in your corner. But I don't think that. In fact, I'm about to go watch our basketball team get stomped by Kentucky with one of my good bros who is actually a democrat.

You've certainly bashed liberals plenty of times on here before.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:49 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
I'd like to address the Daily Kos article, and the points contained in it.

Obamacare will take the insurance I have away.

To me, this is a question of semantics, since the government does not provide private health insurance plans. The ACA sets a minimum standard, and employers can choose to provide those plans or not. Some have chosen not to. You can say this is a consequence of the ACA, or that it is something an employer is doing of their own volition and using the ACA as a scapegoat. In short, the ACA isn't taking anything away in the literal sense of the term, but it can certainly be argued that the cancellation of many low-coverage high-deductible plans (and their subsequent replacement with nothing) is a product of the legislation.

Obamacare won't let me see my doctor anymore.

Again, this depends on the content of individual health plans. Most doctors accept the plans through the private companies affiliated with the ACA, so most patients will not have to change their doctors. Then again, I should qualify that I live in New England, which has widely embraced the ACA, and this sort of thing really hasn't been a big problem.

The IRS will control my health care.

In this case, the Kos article is correct in debunking this myth. The IRS will be deciding what kind of health subsidies Americans get based on their income, but it will not be making decisions based on medical treatment. Now, it can be argued that by determining subsidies, the IRS is in a way controlling health care, but I think that is again a question of semantics.

It's taking Medicare money away from me.

This claim is complete bullshit. My mother is on Medicare (and going through some health difficulties at present, which I have been observing closely). Her Medicare has not changed one bit since the passage of the ACA; it's the same Medicare that she's always had. I don't imagine that anyone else with Medicare A and B should be treated any differently.

Obamacare is going to ration my health care (a corollary of death panels).

Insurance companies, prior to the passage of the ACA, already engaged in rationing. Denying health coverage, denying access to medication, denying benefits - these are all forms of rationing. In theory, the ACA should do away with this, with the elimination of pre-existing conditions and caps. I take a "wait and see" approach on this; the outcomes are not yet known in this case.

This is a government take-over of health care in America.

Not at all. A government takeover of the insurance industry would involve abolishing it, which as a lot of people know, I am very much in favor of. The private health insurance industry is not going anywhere, so the ACA cannot, by any reasonable definition, be called a government takeover of health care.

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Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:50 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Vexer wrote:
New Republic is not left-wing "propaganda", they've tackled conversative subjects as well.


Please excuse my use of minor hyperbole (I think you can understand.)

From the Wikipedia entry:
Quote:
Domestically, TNR as of 2011 supports a largely modern liberal stance on fiscal and social issues,[3] according to editor Franklin Foer, who stated that it "invented the modern usage of the term 'liberal', and it's one of our historical legacies and obligations to be involved in the ongoing debate over what exactly liberalism means and stands for."[4]


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:50 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Might I play Devil's advocate here and say a little something.

The very rich are good at remaining so. So forget them. Essentially all forms of government intervention take from the middle and find creative ways to buy votes from pre-identified client groups.

Is it radical to suggest Obamacare continues this pattern?

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Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:12 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
First: Fox News is right leaning, but it is one of the only ones. The left has CNBC, CNN, and they don't even try to hide it. Also don't look at the news channels, look behind them and see who owns them, and then see who those companies give campaign donations for.

I'm going to get picky with the semantics here and say that while the Democrats might have representation in the cable news sphere, the left is largely unrepresented. I want to make that distinction clear. The mainstream Democrat Party, including President Obama, is not left-wing by any stretch of the imagination, unless you hold the narrow view that anything to the left of the mainstream Republican Party is left-wing.

Elected officials at the national level tilt authoritarian (i.e. socially right-of-center) and right-wing (i.e. conservative on economic policies). This is regardless of which side of the party line they're on. Voting is a selection between those on the right and those further right, and nowhere is this more apparent than in the news coverage during an election season.

And that's not me being an extremist. That is an accurate assessment of where the United States sits in the grand scheme of things. High office is largely a closed tent to the American left.

NotHughGrant wrote:
Might I play Devil's advocate here and say a little something.

The very rich are good at remaining so. So forget them. Essentially all forms of government intervention take from the middle and find creative ways to buy votes from pre-identified client groups.

Is it radical to suggest Obamacare continues this pattern?

Not really, though it would be more accurate to say "middle" and "non-mega-rich rich". There's definitely a distinction between the voracious money hoarders at the top of the top and those who are well-off but not insanely so.

But Obamacare, as flawed as it is, is also a necessary check against a runaway private insurance industry whose actors have very little utility to anyone but themselves.

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Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:18 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Vexer wrote:
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
You seem to be the one who lives in a "little corner"


What little corner do I live in? If I said all democratic liberals are "hipster, gay, socialist, tree hugging, poor people who live off the government" than I would live in your corner. But I don't think that. In fact, I'm about to go watch our basketball team get stomped by Kentucky with one of my good bros who is actually a democrat.

You've certainly bashed liberals plenty of times on here before.


Of course I've bashed liberal democrats...because I don't like their policies of government. The difference is, I DON'T THINK most democrats are "hipster, gay, socialist, tree hugging, poor people." Just because one or two or a 1000 are, doesn't mean the rest are. You still don't understand what stereotyping is.

Ken wrote:
I'm going to get picky with the semantics here and say that while the Democrats might have representation in the cable news sphere, the left is largely unrepresented. I want to make that distinction clear.


You mean when every time a mass shooting happens, and CNBC and CNN start a 24 hour news cycle of how guns have to be abolished.? I mean I'm sure they don't actually believe that, and are only spewing that to get viewers (whether those viewers agree or not). They would actually much rather get viewers and opinions from people who don't agree...makes for higher ratings. I know exactly how the media derived news works.

But that leads into...now more than ever we have gay rights, and health care, and more policies leaning to the left. That tent must be opening up more and more for the left.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:33 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
NotHughGrant wrote:
The very rich are good at remaining so. So forget them. Essentially all forms of government intervention take from the middle and find creative ways to buy votes from pre-identified client groups.


Take away from the middle (which has been going on for some time) and getting more votes from the lower class.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:34 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
You mean when every time a mass shooting happens, and CNBC and CNN start a 24 hour news cycle of how guns have to be abolished.? I mean I'm sure they don't actually believe that, and are only spewing that to get viewers (whether those viewers agree or not). They would actually much rather get viewers and opinions from people who don't agree...makes for higher ratings. I know exactly how the media derived news works.

But that leads into...now more than ever we have gay rights, and health care, and more policies leaning to the left. That tent must be opening up more and more for the left.

No. Dude. Just no. There is not and never has been any kind of predominating cable news coverage advocating for the abolition of guns. I'm not sure where you're getting this.

Nor has their been any substantive movement among our leaders to grant any sort of attention to gay issues, including the leaders with a progressive reputation, without decades of grassroots activism preceding it.

As for healthcare reform, the idea is nothing new--in fact, it dates back more than a century. That it has been such an intractable issue for us, and that it actually got more intractable in the post-war years, is demonstration enough of just how much agency the left has had with it.

If you want to know how wide open that tent is, consider the president's appointees and activities in office. Bush tax cuts extended, trade unions defanged, drone warfare expanded on a massive scale, inaction on climate change, ACTA signed, Monsanto executive appointed to a senior advisory position in the FDA, former Citigroup executive appointed as Chief of Staff, inaction on Guantanamo Bay, hypocrisy on Edward Snowden, ever-expanding income gap, $37 million accepted from the financial services industry, expanded defense spending, signed NDAA, supported domestic drilling... but I digress. Put simply: you cannot rationally say that the left has the ear of our Democratic leadership.

But he supports gay rights! He's damn near socialist!

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Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:04 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
No. Dude. Just no. There is not and never has been any kind of predominating cable news coverage advocating for the abolition of guns. I'm not sure where you're getting this.

I never said that guy. I was just giving an example of a political bias issue, in which certain news channels lean one way, and others lean another...mostly for ratings.

Next, I was just saying certain political issues, such as gay rights, are at the forefront of the political universe now, more than they have ever been... Or at least in my 26 years... I'm also not saying I don't believe in gay rights as I just said before I believe every citizen deserves the same rights as any other citizen. I was just giving another example.

You insist on inferring things.....I'm sorry I'm not a political, articulate, genius ken... That is always right... Though It is just a message board.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:05 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
No. Dude. Just no. There is not and never has been any kind of predominating cable news coverage advocating for the abolition of guns. I'm not sure where you're getting this.

I never said that guy. I was just giving an example of a political bias issue, in which certain news channels lean one way, and others lean another...mostly for ratings.

Next, I was just saying certain political issues, such as gay rights, are at the forefront of the political universe now, more than they have ever been... Or at least in my 26 years... I'm also not saying I don't believe in gay rights as I just said before I believe every citizen deserves the same rights as any other citizen. I was just giving another example.

You insist on inferring things.....I'm sorry I'm not a political, articulate, genius ken... That is always right... Though It is just a message board.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:05 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Sorry. I didn't realize it was a big leap to infer this

Ken wrote:
There is not and never has been any kind of predominating cable news coverage advocating for the abolition of guns. I'm not sure where you're getting this.


from this

roastbeef_ajus wrote:
You mean when every time a mass shooting happens, and CNBC and CNN start a 24 hour news cycle of how guns have to be abolished.?


You understand my point though. For someone who actually is left-of-center--someone who tilts liberal on the economy, someone who is libertarian on social issues--it's slim pickings out there. Obama is just one of many examples of a politician who sells himself as a progressive, but, in practice, is not even close. The only way for a legitimate lefty to support the Democrat Party as it stands today is willful ignorance.

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Last edited by Ken on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
I think Obama is a decent enough president, I just don't like that liberals take their own cultural dominance for granted so much, though it's less of a problem now than it was a few years ago.

One paradox I've noticed though is that while conservatives may emphasize business success more, liberals tend to obsess more over celebrities and the idea of celebrity.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:38 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
Here's something that grinds my gears: this is a podcast show hosted by Kevin Smith, interviewing animation producer Paul Dini of Batman: The Animated Series fame. The topic of discussion is that Young Justice, one of Cartoon Network's shows, got canned on the basis that it had too much of a female viewership.

The issue here is that the superhero fan community is famously insular and skews male, and anytime superhero-related shows and publications are accused of excluding women, the fan community and the industry itself inevitably respond that the products cater to men because it's men who patronize the products, and that women simply aren't interested. So here is a bald-faced counterexample to that argument--a very popular show with a viewership almost evenly balanced along gender lines--and it still got canned.

The basic reality is that the products (books, shows, movies, merch) exclude women because the people responsible for greenlighting the products don't want the female audience, period. They have this calcified, unimaginative, outdated idea of who's watching their shows and buying their stuff, so they tailor the shows and the stuff according to that idea. The female audience is there--it's just that the industry doesn't want them, mainly by convincing itself that it's the other way around.

I find that this situation is a microcosm of much of the entertainment industry and of fan culture in general.

Uh, don't listen to this around your kids. Kevin Smith likes the F-bomb on his radio show just as much as he likes it in his movies. Or play it for your kids and expand their vocabulary.

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Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:20 pm
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Post Re: American Politics
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
No. Dude. Just no. There is not and never has been any kind of predominating cable news coverage advocating for the abolition of guns. I'm not sure where you're getting this.

I never said that guy. I was just giving an example of a political bias issue, in which certain news channels lean one way, and others lean another...mostly for ratings.

Next, I was just saying certain political issues, such as gay rights, are at the forefront of the political universe now, more than they have ever been... Or at least in my 26 years... I'm also not saying I don't believe in gay rights as I just said before I believe every citizen deserves the same rights as any other citizen. I was just giving another example.

You insist on inferring things.....I'm sorry I'm not a political, articulate, genius ken... That is always right... Though It is just a message board.

Obviously you're the one who has no idea what sterotyping is. How many times on here have you used the phrase "liberal hippy shit"? If you don't believe that's stereotyping then I don't know what to tell you.

Also I personally don't believe the stuff with Snowden is "hypocrisy" as he's guilty of other things like selling secrets to China.

Also I very strongly disagree with the notion that it's "ignorant" for someone left to support the Democratic party.

I get that impression that liberals are actually more against celebrities then conservatives are.

Cartoon Network unfortunately have become idiotic ever since Stuart Snyder became president, they tried forcing live-action shows on everyone, they weren't all bad but they felt very out of place. Now CN has been treating "Beware The Batman" pretty badly, it's been months since the last new episodes aired, now the DVD is coming and it will actually contain two episodes that have still not yet been aired on TV.


Last edited by Vexer on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:44 pm
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