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READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum 
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
NotHughGrant wrote:
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
not your perception or idea of why they feel the way they do
.

Is there no place for this discussion? It's a topic that pretty much every blogger and critic delves into at one point or another. I understand that I need to be more civil, but I think there should be a place for this discussion because it's a serious issue.

A woman on this forum really wouldn't hurt either.



Joking me. I come here to escape 'em.

I would also love to see a woman on here, be nice to hear a female perspective on films like Wolf Of Wall Street.


Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:23 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Film criticism itself continues to be dominated by White-American-Males in roughly the same age group, which is really a tiresome, narrow perspective. There are never enough women, never enough non-white people voicing their opinion. That's as true on reelviews as it is on rottentomatoes. "Consensus" really just means the acknowledgment of a few, the ignorance of many. Part of the reason why frustrations come up on this forum is that a majority of posts are simply about agreement and reinforcement.

- I agree, Wall Street is good.
- I agree, Wall Street is excellent.
- I agree, it's terrific.

How can one not see that as a force for intimidation rather than discussion? Is there no way we can meet halfway somehow? Believe that I want to.


Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:02 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
I'd like to thank JamesKunz for making this thread, because I, too, had the impression that the high standards have been deteriorating slightly.

MGamesCook wrote:
Film criticism itself continues to be dominated by White-American-Males in roughly the same age group, which is really a tiresome, narrow perspective. There are never enough women, never enough non-white people voicing their opinion. That's as true on reelviews as it is on rottentomatoes. "Consensus" really just means the acknowledgment of a few, the ignorance of many. Part of the reason why frustrations come up on this forum is that a majority of posts are simply about agreement and reinforcement.

- I agree, Wall Street is good.
- I agree, Wall Street is excellent.
- I agree, it's terrific.

How can one not see that as a force for intimidation rather than discussion? Is there no way we can meet halfway somehow? Believe that I want to.


I don't think this is quite true, although you have a point. But if you only read "White-American-Male" sources, than its your own fault, mostly. It's not that there are no other English language sources available. If you read Catherine Shoard's reviews on the Guardian's movie website, which is quite good, you'd get a female British perspective, for instance.

I also don't think that the discussion of movies on this forum is stifled by general agreement. There have been heated (and civil) arguments about many movies. I know I had a few, for instance on 'We need to talk about Kevin', which I liked very much, and 'Inglorious Basterds', which I didn't. And I don't even post all that much.

NotHughGrant wrote:
MGamesCook wrote:
A woman on this forum really wouldn't hurt either.
Joking me. I come here to escape 'em.


Haha, well done!


Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:26 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
MGamesCook wrote:
Film criticism itself continues to be dominated by White-American-Males in roughly the same age group, which is really a tiresome, narrow perspective. There are never enough women, never enough non-white people voicing their opinion. That's as true on reelviews as it is on rottentomatoes. "Consensus" really just means the acknowledgment of a few, the ignorance of many. Part of the reason why frustrations come up on this forum is that a majority of posts are simply about agreement and reinforcement.

- I agree, Wall Street is good.
- I agree, Wall Street is excellent.
- I agree, it's terrific.

How can one not see that as a force for intimidation rather than discussion? Is there no way we can meet halfway somehow? Believe that I want to.


I would absolutely love to hear perspectives from women and non-whites on this site. I really would. I can't change the fact that I'm white and male, but I suppose we could all go out and recruit some people who aren't.

There have been countless disagreements about movies here. I've even taken part in a few myself (for example, I don't care much for THE TREE OF LIFE or WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT KEVIN but I like THE HELP and KICK ASS 2). They're healthy and just a part of life. Kunz and I disagree vehemently over THE HELP, but when he voiced his feelings, his anger was directed entirely at the movie, not at me.

But here's the problem, and indeed the entire point of this thread. Contrary opinions are just fine. That's not our issue, or at least not mine. I read Dustin Putman all the time (props to Vexer for introducing me to him), who has at least a few really contrarian views each year (this year, he outright disliked THE WORLD'S END). But you know what he never does? Insult his readers. Call them out as shallow sheep. Eviscerate other critics' character who don't even attack him.

So a lot of us like The Wolf of Wall Street, and I think we all did a good job explaining why in the review thread. I really don't believe we're all banding together like some giant mob, pitchforks in hand, screaming "Crush the non-believers!" Or forming a high school-esque clique designed to ostracize others. That's not what we do around here. At least that's not the vibe I get.

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Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:39 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
My view on consensus is that it's an inevitability much of the time, maybe even most of the time. I won't deny that sometimes it comes at the pain of intimidation (see famous examples of fanboys threatening film critics for giving less than perfect scores to superhero movies), but consensus is also very common in nature.

It is a rare event that a movie comes along and splits people's opinions down the middle. Partly, it's because movies that are neither good nor bad (i.e. mediocre) tend not to inspire discussion at all. Partly, it's because movies that are bold enough to cause controversy are rare compared to movies that are designed to be as inoffensive as possible.

I realize that controversy is essential for discussion, but a manufactured controversy isn't really any better than no controversy. You have nothing or you have bullshit that's worth approximately nothing.

I've had some memorable disagreements with people in the past. I continue to insist that Street Fighter is a decent action-comedy and I'll defend it on that basis. I thought Cabin In The Woods was an unqualified dud, and I appear to be alone in that.

As for minorities in the field of criticism, we have an obvious problem both within our own ranks and within the institution of criticism in general. But this mirrors the privileged nature of media in general; the power and influence remain in the hands of the old, the white, the Christian, the heteronormative, the male, etc. Seeking out minority voices can help, because they might not have the reach necessary to find their way to you by themselves.

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Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:04 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Quote:
I read Dustin Putman all the time (props to Vexer for introducing me to him), who has at least a few really contrarian views each year (this year, he outright disliked THE WORLD'S END). But you know what he never does? Insult his readers. Call them out as shallow sheep. Eviscerate other critics' character who don't even attack him.


I hope at some point you can accept my apology and my affirmation that it won't happen again. And then I really hope we can just move on.

Quote:
So a lot of us like The Wolf of Wall Street, and I think we all did a good job explaining why in the review thread. I really don't believe we're all banding together like some giant mob, pitchforks in hand, screaming "Crush the non-believers!" Or forming a high school-esque clique designed to ostracize others. That's not what we do around here. At least that's not the vibe I get.


Okay, I believe you. I'll take your word for it.


Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:25 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
I read Dustin Putman all the time (props to Vexer for introducing me to him), who has at least a few really contrarian views each year (this year, he outright disliked THE WORLD'S END). But you know what he never does? Insult his readers. Call them out as shallow sheep. Eviscerate other critics' character who don't even attack him.


I hope at some point you can accept my apology and my affirmation that it won't happen again. And then I really hope we can just move on.


Cool. That's good enough for me.

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Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:59 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Those looking for a female voice of reason can check out Sheila O'Malley over at Ebert.com as well as on her own blog, www.sheilaomalley.com.

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Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:32 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Ken wrote:
My view on consensus is that it's an inevitability much of the time, maybe even most of the time. I won't deny that sometimes it comes at the pain of intimidation (see famous examples of fanboys threatening film critics for giving less than perfect scores to superhero movies), but consensus is also very common in nature.

It is a rare event that a movie comes along and splits people's opinions down the middle. Partly, it's because movies that are neither good nor bad (i.e. mediocre) tend not to inspire discussion at all. Partly, it's because movies that are bold enough to cause controversy are rare compared to movies that are designed to be as inoffensive as possible.

I realize that controversy is essential for discussion, but a manufactured controversy isn't really any better than no controversy. You have nothing or you have bullshit that's worth approximately nothing.

I've had some memorable disagreements with people in the past. I continue to insist that Street Fighter is a decent action-comedy and I'll defend it on that basis. I thought Cabin In The Woods was an unqualified dud, and I appear to be alone in that.

As for minorities in the field of criticism, we have an obvious problem both within our own ranks and within the institution of criticism in general. But this mirrors the privileged nature of media in general; the power and influence remain in the hands of the old, the white, the Christian, the heteronormative, the male, etc. Seeking out minority voices can help, because they might not have the reach necessary to find their way to you by themselves.


I 73% agree with this.

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Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:39 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
I will try to remain as civil as I can. I try hard to be polite and often quietly seeth at some of the posts I read here. I've been consumed by the anger sent and received in other forums and didn't find it to be fun or relaxing.

One thing I will say is that I am an antisocial prick in real life. Seriously. I'm not that approachable or likeable and I am SO totally fine with that, but I try not to let that out here, 'cause I like it here.

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Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:29 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Unke wrote:

I also don't think that the discussion of movies on this forum is stifled by general agreement. There have been heated (and civil) arguments about many movies. I know I had a few, for instance on 'We need to talk about Kevin', which I liked very much, and 'Inglorious Basterds', which I didn't. And I don't even post all that much.


We had a thread a while back about whether or not there are any movies that we all agree are great. IIRC, we didn't come up with a single one.


Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:17 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
JamesKunz wrote:

And I'm not certainly not perfect now (I made a snipe towards MGamesCook in the Wolf of Wall Street thread that I had to edit quickly because I realize how dickish it was) but I really like you guys, and I really like talking film with you all. However, in the last month or so, I think there's been a marked downturn in civility on the forum. Pedro had to ban someone for a week, we had a fight today that got ugly, and some of the disagreements lately have devolved quickly into personal attacks.

Now there is no question that some people here and more guilty than others, but I would like to remind everyone that this forum, though small, is a cut above the rest of the internet in terms of the intelligence and film knowledge displayed by its denizens. We should strive to keep it that way. So please:

    -No ad hominem attacks.

    Being nice is as important is being smart, particularly online.




Excellent idea's and thoughts here Kunz. Instead of being aggressive, let's just be passive aggressive. Let's type something like *sighs* rather that write it straight. :|

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Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:32 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
wisey wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:

And I'm not certainly not perfect now (I made a snipe towards MGamesCook in the Wolf of Wall Street thread that I had to edit quickly because I realize how dickish it was) but I really like you guys, and I really like talking film with you all. However, in the last month or so, I think there's been a marked downturn in civility on the forum. Pedro had to ban someone for a week, we had a fight today that got ugly, and some of the disagreements lately have devolved quickly into personal attacks.

Now there is no question that some people here and more guilty than others, but I would like to remind everyone that this forum, though small, is a cut above the rest of the internet in terms of the intelligence and film knowledge displayed by its denizens. We should strive to keep it that way. So please:

    -No ad hominem attacks.

    Being nice is as important is being smart, particularly online.




Excellent idea's and thoughts here Kunz. Instead of being aggressive, let's just be passive aggressive. Let's type something like *sighs* rather that write it straight. :|


*furrows brow* I'm trying to figure out if that's a passive-aggressive criticism of me. Which would be interestingly meta if so.

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Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:26 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
JamesKunz wrote:
wisey wrote:
Excellent idea's and thoughts here Kunz. Instead of being aggressive, let's just be passive aggressive. Let's type something like *sighs* rather that write it straight. :|


*furrows brow* I'm trying to figure out if that's a passive-aggressive criticism of me. Which would be interestingly meta if so.

There's a place in Mountain View called the Hacker Dojo. It's a community center for programmers and entrepreneurs and such; I go there to write when I'm not being particularly productive at home. All you have to do to use their facilities is sign in and agree to the rules. The first rule is literally "don't be a dick." I feel like everyone who reads that rule understands what it means, and that's what James and I have tried to convey with these topics.

Things have been better lately. Not perfect, but better.

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Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:14 pm
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
Pedro wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
wisey wrote:
Excellent idea's and thoughts here Kunz. Instead of being aggressive, let's just be passive aggressive. Let's type something like *sighs* rather that write it straight. :|


*furrows brow* I'm trying to figure out if that's a passive-aggressive criticism of me. Which would be interestingly meta if so.

There's a place in Mountain View called the Hacker Dojo. It's a community center for programmers and entrepreneurs and such; I go there to write when I'm not being particularly productive at home. All you have to do to use their facilities is sign in and agree to the rules. The first rule is literally "don't be a dick." I feel like everyone who reads that rule understands what it means, and that's what James and I have tried to convey with these topics.

Things have been better lately. Not perfect, but better.


Yeah, things are going swimmingly viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1118. I'd guess there would be a quarter of people who joined this forum in 2009 that regularly view it now. Even less stopping by to see what the forum members they respect think about a film, or life in general from the open forum. Unless you introduce a block chat option or something similar, or just simply permanently suspend the two antagonists for good, threads like these will become more ridiculous by the year.

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Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:13 am
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Post Re: READ PLEASE - General Civility on the Forum
wisey wrote:


Yeah, things are going swimmingly http://reelviews.net/reelviewsforum/vie ... =23&t=1118. I'd guess there would be a quarter of people who joined this forum in 2009 that regularly view it now. Even less stopping by to see what the forum members they respect think about a film, or life in general from the open forum. Unless you introduce a block chat option or something similar, or just simply permanently suspend the two antagonists for good, threads like these will become more ridiculous by the year.


I don't really have any problem with the thread you link to above. A little bit trashy, but nothing major. There's no question the forum is a fraction of its former self, but I like to think of it as being like the United Kingdom: we don't have the huge empire any more, but we're still a good country in our own right, albeit much smaller

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