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February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch" 
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Post February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
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Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:38 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
I have to disagree about fanfiction, just cause people write it dosen't automatically mean they're not "true fans". I've read some fanfiction that was better written then what the author wrote in some cases.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:52 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Vexer wrote:
I have to disagree about fanfiction, just cause people write it dosen't automatically mean they're not "true fans". I've read some fanfiction that was better written then what the author wrote in some cases.


Didn't say anything about those who write fanfiction not being true fans. What I wrote was: "Those who prefer their own vision over the author's aren't really fans."


Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:39 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
I have not read A Song of Ice and Fire, but my understanding is that the slow release of the remaining books puts Game of Thrones in a very interesting situation. For a number of practical and financial reasons, HBO is not going to put the show on hiatus to allow Martin to catch up. On the other hand, the showrunners would naturally not want to start deliberately padding out their adaptation once they've exhausted the published material (which I've heard speculated is probably another season or two away from happening).

It would be kind of fascinating if the TV show ended up finishing the story before the books themselves did. The alternative to that would force either Martin or Benioff/Weiss to compromise their vision. This must be an unprecedented problem, surely?


Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:43 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Quote:
The Internet is largely to blame but it has accomplices.


I wasn't clear who the "accomplices" are, but I thought that he meant that it was the fans themselves. Or more precisely, their impatience and need for instant gratification. The only true material purpose for a creator to interact with the fans is for marketing - to keep the hype alive and to promote the material.

Also, hypothetically, if George R.R. Martin hired some ghostwriters to finish off the series faster (perhaps under his direction), would the general population who consumed these books even care? Perhaps they would be pleased that it was delivered much faster, so they can consume immediately and move on to something else.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:44 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
James Berardinelli wrote:
Vexer wrote:
I have to disagree about fanfiction, just cause people write it dosen't automatically mean they're not "true fans". I've read some fanfiction that was better written then what the author wrote in some cases.


Didn't say anything about those who write fanfiction not being true fans. What I wrote was: "Those who prefer their own vision over the author's aren't really fans."


But is it fan of the author or fan of their creation? If someone else can improve or extend the original creation, why would a fan of the creation not be considered a fan?


Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:47 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Jason wrote:
I have not read A Song of Ice and Fire, but my understanding is that the slow release of the remaining books puts Game of Thrones in a very interesting situation. For a number of practical and financial reasons, HBO is not going to put the show on hiatus to allow Martin to catch up. On the other hand, the showrunners would naturally not want to start deliberately padding out their adaptation once they've exhausted the published material (which I've heard speculated is probably another season or two away from happening).

It would be kind of fascinating if the TV show ended up finishing the story before the books themselves did. The alternative to that would force either Martin or Benioff/Weiss to compromise their vision. This must be an unprecedented problem, surely?


I spoke to someone in HBO about this and he said he doesn't think there will be an issue. Thumbnail of what *may* happen:

Book 3 Part B: Spring 2014
Books 4&5 will be interleaved and split into three seasons - 2015, 2016, 2017

It is currently hoped that Book 6 will be published in 2016, although that's by no means certain. Could be as early as late 2015 or as late as early 2017. Martin doesn't like to be pinned down.

Book 6 will be broken into two seasons: 2018 & 2019. From a practical standpoint, that would mean pre-production would need to begin on the first half of Book 7 in 2019.

It is hoped that Martin will be able to publish Book 7 in 2020. Ideally, the publishers would like to get this out at the very beginning of the year. However, Martin should have finished writing it, at least in draft form, early enough for it to be used as the basis of the 2-season adaptation (2020, 2021).

The bigger question probably isn't whether Martin will be able to follow this schedule but whether the series will continue to be popular and viable for seven more years. My understanding is that only 2015 is currently guaranteed and, while 2016 and 2017 are considered "likely," no one is committing to anything after that.

As always, if it's financially successful, it will continue. If not, it will end.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:53 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Oh, wow. I'm surprised by the idea that the fourth and fifth books would translate to three seasons. Coming from my limited vantage (never read a page of GRR) I was under the impression that just as book three was dense enough to justify two seasons in and of itself, its two immediate successors are significantly less so in terms of narrative propulsion and would likely even be combined to resemble the pace of what came before. This is something I've gleaned from fan discussions though, nothing more.

And whether it originated from an actual report or my own imagination, for some reason I also had the idea that Game of Thrones was envisioned to last 7-8 seasons in its totality. That your source prescribes a run that lasts over a decade kind blows me away, but perhaps plans changed once the massive success of the show declared itself, or the integer in my head never came from anyplace legitimate?

Another thought: the unique way the show has to be filmed (by geography), suggests that all ten scripts must be finalized prior to production. This means that whatever Season 5 will cover, that adaptation process is probably well underway. Must be a stressful situation.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:06 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
James Berardinelli wrote:
Vexer wrote:
I have to disagree about fanfiction, just cause people write it dosen't automatically mean they're not "true fans". I've read some fanfiction that was better written then what the author wrote in some cases.


Didn't say anything about those who write fanfiction not being true fans. What I wrote was: "Those who prefer their own vision over the author's aren't really fans."

Oh OK.

I do think hatred for Lucas was way overblown though, people's expectations for TPM were just way too high and I don't think there was any possible way the film could've ever lived up to the massive hype.

I'm honestly not a Game Of Thrones fan, but I feel sorry for those who are. I get ticked whenever I see TV shows get repeatedly delayed(like Cartoon Network is doing to "Beware The Batman" right now)

There is such a thing as being too much of a perfectionist though, it can happen with all forms of medium. With films it was Heaven's Gate, Cimino actually tore down the entire set and rebuilt after he discovered the main street wasn't wide enough(instead of ya know just redoing the one street), now that's just overkill.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:26 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Sometimes video games have the exact opposite problem. The rush to have a holiday release has really hurt some games big-time (specifically, I'm thinking of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II for the original XBox and its awful, rushed-like-a-bat-outta-hell final level/ending). Other times, like Grand Theft Auto V, the developer does the right thing by delaying and touching up.

And as for Star Wars, as much as I hope most people will learn to approach Episode VII a little more level-headed this time, I kinda doubt it.

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Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:00 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
I think the lead-up to Episode VII is going to be interesting. In the lead-up to TPM, everyone thought it would be great, but with VII, some people are going to take the attitude of "Yay, Lucas isn't in charge anymore, the franchise is going to go back to being great", others with be thinking "It's Disney now, it's gonna suck", and yet other will think that it's already ruined forever.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:29 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Time for my usual prequel spiel:

The prequels were awful because of the writing, and this leads to Lucas' biggest flaw. By the time he made the prequels, he'd surrounded himself with yes men, with no one willing to say "George, your script sucks and it needs work." The prequels could have been successful had the writing been better.

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Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:50 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
Time for my usual prequel spiel:

The prequels were awful because of the writing, and this leads to Lucas' biggest flaw. By the time he made the prequels, he'd surrounded himself with yes men, with no one willing to say "George, your script sucks and it needs work." The prequels could have been successful had the writing been better.

I respectfully disagree, I thought the writing on the prequels was pretty good for the most part, whether one's script "sucks" is strictly a matter of opinion and I don't blame Lucas for not wanting to listen to the naysayers.

The prequels were succesful despite what some fans say as they made plenty of money and there are plenty of fans that did enjoy them. I personally think all the haters are a vocal minority.


Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:04 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Still think Sith is legitimately good (I am ok with the previous two but they are kind of childish so I understand the hate somewhat).

As for GoT, I'm glad I finished the last book just last year, so I don't have too long a wait for the next one, and that I am able to read the fourth and fifth book in a linear timeline. However, it's my understanding that the frustration with Martin comes in part from how he promised the release date of both books, especialy the fourth one, and then delayed them so many times. That the fourth one (and to some the fifth) is also a noticeable drop of quality in their eyes after that much time may sour their fandom a bit.

Like a poster above, I would share my amazement if they can make three seasons out of the last two books. The showrunners would have to add something of their own because I even thought they could even do them in one season (I previously thought they had planned two seasons out of them).


Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:06 pm
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
[quote] We live in a time of instant gratification where the virtue of patience is too rarely practiced. For some people, waiting a month can seem like an eternity.[quote]

This statement reminded me about another latest trend in television - "speed plotting." That is, screenwriters rolling out plot revelations early and often, rather than taking their time to roll it out over time. And "bingewatching," too, or course. Thanks to mediums such as Netflix.


Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:30 am
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Taleswapper wrote:
Quote:
We live in a time of instant gratification where the virtue of patience is too rarely practiced. For some people, waiting a month can seem like an eternity.
Quote:

This statement reminded me about another latest trend in television - "speed plotting." That is, screenwriters rolling out plot revelations early and often, rather than taking their time to roll it out over time. And "bingewatching," too, or course. Thanks to mediums such as Netflix.

Nowadays I prefer to wait until a TV show has finished airing before I start watching it, that way I don't have to deal with waiting many months to see a cliffhanger get resolved.


Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:09 am
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
Time for my usual prequel spiel:

The prequels were awful because of the writing, and this leads to Lucas' biggest flaw. By the time he made the prequels, he'd surrounded himself with yes men, with no one willing to say "George, your script sucks and it needs work." The prequels could have been successful had the writing been better.

I was not a child of the 80s, so I cannot comment on the whole Star Wars problem because I became a fan during the prequels. But I will say that whatever problems Menace and Clones may have had - and let's face it, they had many - I forgave Lucas all of them for the outstanding final half hour of Revenge of the Sith. The whole sequence beginning with the dual battles between Obi-Wan/Anakin & Yoda/Emperor and ending up with Anakin morphing into Darth Vader while Padme gives birth to Luke and Leia is simply outstanding filmmaking. (All the while John Williams' brilliance does its work in the background.) That sequence is so awe-inspiring and goosebump-inducing that I can overlook whatever problems Films 1 and 2 had.

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Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:46 am
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
George Martin as the writer of the books can do what he likes with his works or take as long as he wants to write them. That though doesn't put him above criticism by his customers not readers as the common euphemism goes. I don't think Martin sees people who buy his books as paying customers like other businesses would. This is a classic example of someone not understanding queuing theory and the resultant customer dissatisfaction. This not without precedent as Arthur Conan Doyle tried to kill off Sherlock Holmes as he didn't want to write about him anymore but the buying public would not have it and we got more Sherlock canon despite the author.Readers were right author wrong.

http://thepopcultist.com/2012/10/13/how-sir-arthur-conan-doyle-tried-and-failed-to-kill-sherlock-holmes/

You could look at Saving Mr Banks where Disney's ideas were right on film adaptation and the author was wrong.

What gets me about Martin is with book 4 The Feast of Crows is that it is a book that an editor would not have let a less successful author get away with. Long,boring and with nothing happening page after page. Martin excuses himself by saying the story grew in the telling but it looks more like self indulgence by the author and negligence by the book editors. The one thing I don't worry is if Martin will pull a Robert Jordan but if HBO will pull a Deadwood or Rome on us. They do have a habit of suddenly shutting successful shows down for budgetary reasons leaving fans hanging so Martin may or may not have to hurry to write the concluding books.

Quote:
respectfully disagree, I thought the writing on the prequels was pretty good for the most part, whether one's script "sucks" is strictly a matter of opinion and I don't blame Lucas for not wanting to listen to the naysayers.


In all the prequels I don't see a single memorable line of dialogue,action scene or even a character that has penetrated popular culture like the first three movies. Except for Jar Jar Binks which everyone over 12 mostly detested with a white hot passion which is indicative of the older CEO Lucas' complete lack of feel for his own material and filmmaking in general.


Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:42 am
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
JB's commentary about George RR Martin and the pace of his writing begs the following questions:

(1) How faithful is the HBO series Game of Thrones to the novels written by Martin? (Note: I have not read any of Martin's books to date, nor have I seen the HBO series Game of Thrones).

(2) How much creative flexibility do the producers of Game of Thrones have in altering or deviating from the source material? Presumably if a particular release of a book is delayed, the producers could hire screenwriters to expand upon or deviate on existing plot points (whether that is a good thing or not is a separate matter).


Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:49 am
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Post Re: February 04, 2014: "George R.R. Martin is not Your Bitch"
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Unused to negative feedback, he grew defensive when a block of fandom responded poorly to The Phantom Menace.


Did he not listen to a word about how crappy the 3rd original movie was?


Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:11 am
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