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Damned if you do....damned if you don't. 
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Post Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
So, my friend and I were talking about 9/11 and freedoms etc. My dad used to be a million miler; he was basically George Clooney from "Up in the Air" (except he didn't fire people...he was an engineer consultant that traveled the world). His main hub was Atlanta, and he used to tell me stories about walking through that airport. Before 9/11, he went through there so much that he actually got to know the security team, and they would just say hey "Mr. John", come on through (without actually checking I'm). Well, after that day, stuff changed. It got to be such a burden for him that he took a job from home.

Think about that...things changed sooooo much that he quit his lucrative job to take another one where he didn't have to travel anymore. WAS IT WORTH IT?

I think the terrorists won when they made us change our ways. I'm of the group that said, "build those two buildings back brick for brick, and show those douchers Americans have resilience!" After that day, the patriot act went through smoothly. America was crying for retribution and they let shit happen.

I'm still the guy that says keep our liberty. I know that 9/11 was an atrocity, but I will pay that if it means America keeps its values. IF we don't...then the other team wins, and it has nothing to do with wars...it has everything to do with our way of life being affected.


Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:42 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
I was talking about this with a few people recently, and I realized that the terrorists didn't win. In fact, they blew it big time. They handed us the sympathy of the world.

What happened after 9/11 was that a particularly greedy and opportunistic subset of our leadership saw their chance to hump the military-industrial complex for all it was worth. It's them that we have to thank for the USAPATRIOT Act, airport security theater, NSA bulk data collection, various military actions overseas, and countless other bits of nonsense designed to cater to the interests of big businesses under the guise of protecting America from terrorism. Yeah, you could argue that 9/11 was a vital link in the chain that allowed this to happen, but why give the terrorists credit for something that was caused much more directly by our own leadership?

As an aside, rebuilding the WTC buildings just as they were would have been my preferred plan as well. They were architecturally bland, but their image has a resonance now that they didn't have before. I think that resonance would have been more positive if we allowed them to stand for our resilience, rather than for our loss.

I did see the new World Trade Center One last year. I guess it's kind of neat. Big tall building.

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Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:11 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
I remember 9/11 well. I watched the second plane crash live on the BBC news. Not something you forget.

I also remember being sure that those towers would be rebuilt bigger and better within a couple of years.

Sad it never happened.

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Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:25 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Ken wrote:
I was talking about this with a few people recently, and I realized that the terrorists didn't win. In fact, they blew it big time. They handed us the sympathy of the world.


They did win. I can't walk through airport security with shampoo bottles larger than 1.5 oz. I had to throw away a $100 worth of cologne because it was larger than 1.5 0z. I had scissors in my bag that I got checked for, and I had to toss them.

I will take the prospect of a terrorist attack a year, if it means I get to keep the freedoms I used to enjoy. And I don't say that lightly. I don't know how America keeps the idiots at bay...but I shouldn't have to sacrifice that which I enjoy. In one night, my dad went from not having to check anything...to having his sphincter examined.


I'm saying...I'm not smart enough to know how we deal with that stuff...but I will take anything that is thrown at us to not lose what used to make America....America.


Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:21 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
It's not always been sweet in US airports.

Back in 1997 when my Dad and I landed in New Jersey, a kind young gentleman pointed a machine gun in his face whilst he was robustly frisked.

Now, this may be the norm in some cultures, but for a University Lecturer from Yorkshire, it was a shock.

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Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:35 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Yeah I really don't think the terrorists "won", not by a long shot, if you should blame anyone, go after the TSA, as they're security measures were getting out of hand even before 9/11(George Carlin ironically ranted at length about airport security well before that fateful day, talking about how he would find terrorism "entertaining")

I think it's a bit shallow to talk about it in terms like "other team" as if this is some kind of game, which it isn't. I also don't see what "values" have to do with 9/11 at all :?

Also one of the towers was finally rebuilt earlier this year(The One World Trade Center, which officially opens next month and looks pretty impressive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center ).

Saying you would take a terrorist attack a year to get back your "freedoms" is a pretty disturbing and sick thing to say :o :shock:


Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Vexer wrote:
Yeah I really don't think the terrorists "won", not by a long shot, if you should blame anyone, go after the TSA, as they're security measures were getting out of hand even before 9/11(George Carlin ironically ranted at length about airport security well before that fateful day, talking about how he would find terrorism "entertaining")

I think it's a bit shallow to talk about it in terms like "other team" as if this is some kind of game, which it isn't. I also don't see what "values" have to do with 9/11 at all :?

Also one of the towers was finally rebuilt earlier this year(The One World Trade Center, which officially opens next month and looks pretty impressive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center ).

Saying you would take a terrorist attack a year to get back your "freedoms" is a pretty disturbing and sick thing to say :o :shock:


1. What I was saying is that I'm not prepared to let a terrorist attack affect my way of life. Whether a domestic terrorist shoots up a school or a rag head bombs a building, I say America keeps on keeping on. The only real way to fight back is not changing.

2. Vexer, have you ever even been on a plane?

3. Isn't it time to go buy this month's allotment of legos so you will have something to do?


Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Yeah I really don't think the terrorists "won", not by a long shot, if you should blame anyone, go after the TSA, as they're security measures were getting out of hand even before 9/11(George Carlin ironically ranted at length about airport security well before that fateful day, talking about how he would find terrorism "entertaining")

I think it's a bit shallow to talk about it in terms like "other team" as if this is some kind of game, which it isn't. I also don't see what "values" have to do with 9/11 at all :?

Also one of the towers was finally rebuilt earlier this year(The One World Trade Center, which officially opens next month and looks pretty impressive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center ).

Saying you would take a terrorist attack a year to get back your "freedoms" is a pretty disturbing and sick thing to say :o :shock:


1. What I was saying is that I'm not prepared to let a terrorist attack affect my way of life. Whether a domestic terrorist shoots up a school or a rag head bombs a building, I say America keeps on keeping on. The only real way to fight back is not changing.

2. Vexer, have you ever even been on a plane?

3. Isn't it time to go buy this month's allotment of legos so you will have something to do?
Yes I have been on a plane post 9/11, and the process of going through security was actually not nearly as bad as I thought it would be(though like you my mom accidentally brought a pair of scissors with her, so those got confiscated) I didn't have to get a pat-down or anything like that.

I agree that it shouldn't change our way of life, but that dosen't mean we shouldn't be prepared either.

WTF do legos have to do with anything that I said? :?


Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:03 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Allow one terrorist attack per year in exchange for not giving up freedoms? Hypothetically speaking, it's a fascinating conundrum, even if it does sound an awful lot like The Purge.

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Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:23 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
KWRoss wrote:
Allow one terrorist attack per year in exchange for not giving up freedoms? Hypothetically speaking, it's a fascinating conundrum, even if it does sound an awful lot like The Purge.

I guess if you could pick where the attack would occur it might be fine. Like for example I don't think anyone would be too sad if the Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology was blown up in a terrorist attack.


Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:36 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Vexer wrote:
I guess if you could pick where the attack would occur it might be fine. Like for example I don't think anyone would be too sad if the Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology was blown up in a terrorist attack.


Both non-violent groups should be sacrificed because we don't like their belief system? Seems rather terroristic itself, homey.

Roastbeef, I'm trying to hear your argument, but I'm not getting it. Being able to take shampoo on a plane is an essential freedom that innocents should be sacrificed for? You aren't exactly making compelling arguments. Yes, enhanced travel guidelines make it a major hassle for people who fly all the time, but a few minutes extra (which is usually it is) seems a small price to pay, and again, I fail to see what's so essentially "American" and one of our freedoms to be able to get on a plane without any hassle at all. I'm just not getting it.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:31 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Shade2 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
I guess if you could pick where the attack would occur it might be fine. Like for example I don't think anyone would be too sad if the Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology was blown up in a terrorist attack.


Both non-violent groups should be sacrificed because we don't like their belief system? Seems rather terroristic itself, homey.

Roastbeef, I'm trying to hear your argument, but I'm not getting it. Being able to take shampoo on a plane is an essential freedom that innocents should be sacrificed for? You aren't exactly making compelling arguments. Yes, enhanced travel guidelines make it a major hassle for people who fly all the time, but a few minutes extra (which is usually it is) seems a small price to pay, and again, I fail to see what's so essentially "American" and one of our freedoms to be able to get on a plane without any hassle at all. I'm just not getting it.

Do you have any idea of the horrors of scientology? It's not a real religion, it's a sham that has resulted in deaths and brainwashing, their beliefs are all sci-fi nonsense that no one in their right-mind could possibly believe. https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/scientologist-horror-story-destruction-of-my-family.59998/ if anyone is terrorist-like it's them, not me. Anyways i'm just being hypothetical, so methinks you should cool your jets :lol:


Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:50 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Quote:
It's not a real religion



As opposed to a religion that is real?

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Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:50 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Just to say...I don't understand the complaints about things you can't bring on an airplane. Yes, it is true I can't bring a meat cleaver, machete, samurai sword, hockey stick, AR-15, cattle prod, chainsaw, nunchucks, dynamite, hand grenades and tear gas on a plane. But I've never needed any of those items while flying, and I can't think of a single reason why anyone else would. What in the hell would you need a samurai sword on a plane for?

Also, I've never had to wash my hair while on a plane. So no, I've never tried to bring a bottle of shampoo on board.

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Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
What I love is the suggestion that all these enhanced security measures are about security instead of lining the pockets of the airlines and the airports, not to mention other companies. When the prohibition against bringing large quantities of liquids through security was instituted, my first thought was: well, sales of drinks at airports will shoot through the roof, as will travel size shampoos and such.

Sexual Chocolate, while you're right that you don't need shampoo on an airplane, you will need it at your destination unless you're staying in a fully appointed hotel. Now if you're flying an airline other than Southwest you'll have to pay at least $25 to check a bag, but if you could have put it in your carry-on then you wouldn't have to.

Like I said, this has less to do with security than making sure Americans who fly keep consuming. Why don't other countries require passengers to take off their shoes then? (This is such a thing that Cancun's airport security line posts signs telling passengers to leave their shoes on.) Admittedly I'm not sure what the consumerist reason for this one is, but it's telling.

I know on the face of it, roastbeef's tradeoff statement could be offensive, but he has a point. I really wonder how many terrorist attacks over the past dozen years the TSA's enhanced measures actually have thwarted, to say nothing of the far more egregious Patriot Act.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:11 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Interesting, i've never been forced to take off my shoes at an airport before.


Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:43 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Yeah I really don't think the terrorists "won", not by a long shot, if you should blame anyone, go after the TSA, as they're security measures were getting out of hand even before 9/11(George Carlin ironically ranted at length about airport security well before that fateful day, talking about how he would find terrorism "entertaining")

I think it's a bit shallow to talk about it in terms like "other team" as if this is some kind of game, which it isn't. I also don't see what "values" have to do with 9/11 at all :?

Also one of the towers was finally rebuilt earlier this year(The One World Trade Center, which officially opens next month and looks pretty impressive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center ).

Saying you would take a terrorist attack a year to get back your "freedoms" is a pretty disturbing and sick thing to say :o :shock:


or a rag head bombs a building, I say America keeps on keeping on.


nice.


Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:01 am
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
Vexer wrote:
Interesting, i've never been forced to take off my shoes at an airport before.


When is the last time you went through security to board a plane? It is required you must remove your shoes, belt, and jacket. It started after 9/11...so I guess you haven't been on a plane in 12 years...unless you own your own G5...or maybe G4 to save money.


Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:59 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Interesting, i've never been forced to take off my shoes at an airport before.


When is the last time you went through security to board a plane? It is required you must remove your shoes, belt, and jacket. It started after 9/11...so I guess you haven't been on a plane in 12 years...unless you own your own G5...or maybe G4 to save money.

2004 was the last time I was on a plane, I went with my family to visit my aunt in Arizona. I remember the security personel being pretty friendly, no one got called out for any random searches or anything like that. Though that's not to say I support TSA's extreme measures, just that it isn't necessarily like that at every airport.


Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Damned if you do....damned if you don't.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
1. What I was saying is that I'm not prepared to let a terrorist attack affect my way of life.

I wonder how many people say stuff like this up to the moment when they are directly affected by such an attack? Words are wind.

roastbeef_ajus wrote:
...or a rag head bombs a building..

"Hi, I'm Timothy McVeigh. Why are you calling me a rag head?"

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Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:39 am
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