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Obligatory Obamacare thread 
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
CasualDad: While there are many fine contributors to this forum, have I mentioned that you are one of my favorites? :)

(End shameless arse kissing.)


Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:06 am
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
CasualDad wrote:
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2. The ACA sucks, but conservatives don't have any real better solutions. Anyone who has done their research should know that the ACA is practically a facsimile of a proposal written by the Heritage Foundation in the early 90s, and supported by Marxists such as Newt Gingrich, Dick Armey, and Bob Dole. So we've adopted the conservative solution, and it sucks. So what's Plan B? I know what it should be, and I suppose others do too.


One of those "conservatives" lost in the primary presidential election when actual conservatives didn't find enough contrast between him and his democratic opponent to make it worth getting out to vote for him. The other two were caught up in some level of scandals both real and made up, and were driven out by their own party which was hopelessly trying to impress upon what's in it for me voters that values matter. None of them can garner enough support from actual conservatives to be of any real significant direct influence these days.

We do pay more for health care than the rest of the world, but we also are the place many people come from around the world for emergency health care when in dire need. Also the place where many of the most significant advances in medication occur.

We also pay more per pupil for K-12 education, but only conservatives seem interested in reforming that system for costs. Everyone else wants to add even more money. One might as well look at other countries where significantly higher percentages of GDP are spent on food or potable water and question why they aren't radically changing their systems to fix those problems. Or countries where housing and property are only available to wealthy while everyone else lives in cardboard and tin shanties. Those things are generally regarded as more immediate needs than preventative health care and are cheap and abundantly available in the U.S. Rising health care costs are a burden, but in my opinion adding more government can't fix any of the current problems except by lowering costs through lowering the overall standard of care. I strongly suspect that even when low cost preventative care is made practically available to the poorest among us through the redistribution of wealth, they will reject it and continue to utilize the strategy of going to the emergency room when needed. Who is going to turn them away? And what will become of the redistributed wealth?


It'll be spent on beer and smokes - the kind of things that make people need hospitals even more, and so on.

From an outsider's perspective, US Healthcare seems a myriad of headfucks. Probably because an increasingly complex system is tinkered with every administration.

I'm not going to be hypocritical here and lie, and say that I wish we had no NHS in this country. Because I'm glad of it. I've not used it much myself, but will someday no doubt. And my family has.

But our system is also fucked, if it's any consolation. Many of the regional care trusts are de facto bankrupt. The government (of both hues) can't even keep costs level, never mind down. And the quality of care per £ spent is generally regarded as being awful in many areas.

Buy hey ho. March on, etc

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:37 am
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
2. The ACA sucks, but conservatives don't have any real better solutions. Anyone who has done their research should know that the ACA is practically a facsimile of a proposal written by the Heritage Foundation in the early 90s, and supported by Marxists such as Newt Gingrich, Dick Armey, and Bob Dole. So we've adopted the conservative solution, and it sucks. So what's Plan B? I know what it should be, and I suppose others do too.


To call the ACA a "facsimile" of GOP/Heritage is a bit of an overstep. To be sure, the idea of "insurance exchanges", or marketplaces, originated from Heritage, but as implemented, and with the tons of extra baggage attached in the 906 pages of the ACA, they are not as similar as you might think.

"Romneycare" (which Democrats also like to cite as a direct 'ancestor' to "Obamacare") by contrast was only 145 pages long.

PolitiFact assessment that the 'ACA was the GOP plan of the 90's.': http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... plan-1993/


Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:09 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
[quote="Ken"][quote="CasualDad"]One of those "conservatives" lost in the primary presidential election when actual conservatives didn't find enough contrast between him and his democratic opponent to make it worth getting out to vote for him. The other two were caught up in some level of scandals both real and made up, and were driven out by their own party which was hopelessly trying to impress upon what's in it for me voters that values matter. None of them can garner enough support from actual conservatives to be of any real significant direct influence these days.[/quote]
If I may ask, who did you favor out of all the candidates running for president? If party politics/strategic voting weren't a concern and you could have picked any of them as your ideal conservative candidate, who was it?

Romney, to me, seemed like the guy who got picked because the Republicans didn't want to waste one of their genuine superstars on an election that would have been really tough to win. Kind of like Kerry in 2004--basically a human placeholder while the party bided its time.[/quote]

I don't recall who I would have chosen as an alternative to Dole in '96. In '88 and '92 I voted libertarian, but abandoned that in later years with the realization that only two parties appear to have any real chance on the national level.

In 2012 I voted for Santorum as I felt he was the most conservative candidate left in the field by the time the republican primary made it to MS. I wasn't terribly upset when Romney later won the nomination - even though much less conservative than I wanted, I also felt he represented himself for what he is. I don't believe that to be the case for most higher office politicians whether they claim to be right, left, or middle.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:46 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
The only thing I really remember about Santorum was that he had an openly gay advisor supporting his extreme anti-gay stance(gay marriage hurts his family? don't make me laugh :lol:), said advisor got questioned in a Hardball interview pretty harshly over supporting someone who didn't support his sexuality.

Romney didn't really represent himself for who he was though, he backflipped on a lot of his more moderate viewpoints in order to get the Republican nomination. For example he previously supported a woman's right to choose, then he suddenly changed to pro-life. A lot of Republicans called him a fake, claiming he wasn't a real conservative.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Romney also flipped on his healthcare stance compared to his days as state governor.

Saying all that, Obama will almost certainly go down as a poor excuse for President

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:06 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
NotHughGrant wrote:
Romney also flipped on his healthcare stance compared to his days as state governor.

Saying all that, Obama will almost certainly go down as a poor excuse for President

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Bush set the bar so low that it's pretty much impossible for any president following him to be viewed badly by comparison.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Vexer wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
Romney also flipped on his healthcare stance compared to his days as state governor.

Saying all that, Obama will almost certainly go down as a poor excuse for President

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Bush set the bar so low that it's pretty much impossible for any president following him to be viewed badly by comparison.


People said the same thing of Truman at the time. Only time will tell. Right now Obama's approval ratings are roughly on par with where W's were at this point of his presidency. But then you'll probably claim that Jimmy Carter was a better president that Reagan.

Vexer wrote:
Romney didn't really represent himself for who he was though, he backflipped on a lot of his more moderate viewpoints in order to get the Republican nomination. For example he previously supported a woman's right to choose, then he suddenly changed to pro-life. A lot of Republicans called him a fake, claiming he wasn't a real conservative.


I think you'll find that it is a very difficult thing for politicians to do: to maintain the same range of policy positions when a) running in a primary, b) running in a general election and c) governing in office. Not saying what you stated is wrong about Romney, but I think that you will find that the vast majority of politicians at that level will need to skew to their ideological base in the primaries, and then "run for the center" during the general election. At least those that want to get elected, anyway.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:25 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
I think historians will rank Obama higher than Bush Jr. but he will ultimately be viewed as middle-of-the-road. But it's hard to really know how these things will shake out until ears or decades later. Consider how Truman has grown in stature as the years have passed. Additionally, I think recent events really give a cause to question Reagan's true legacy. These things take time.

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
It wouldn't be unreasonable to claim Carter was a better president then Reagan, at least not according to my mom, who is FAR from a Reagan fan.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Being anti-gay would imply that he advocates exile, jail, killing, or otherwise preventing gays from being gay. If he knowingly had a gay person working with him then it appears that he is ok with the existence of gays. He is opposed to official recognition of gay marriage and it is possible (although I don't know) that the gay person working with him didn't care that much about that issue.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
If Romney portrayed himself as a conservative he did a poor job of it. Texas was the only deep red state he won in the primaries, and that probably because he was the last man standing that late.

Anyway, I was only answering Ken's question. None of these republicans have anything to do with the ACA and in fact, no republican voted for it. Trying to sell it as something that appealed to republicans seems strange when not a single one voted for it.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Vexer wrote:
It wouldn't be unreasonable to claim Carter was a better president then Reagan, at least not according to my mom, who is FAR from a Reagan fan.


Carter is a mixed bag for me. He started the trend toward excessive deregulation that Reagan/Bush/Clinton accelerated and ultimately led to the financial collapse. So there's that. I am willing to acknowledge that some of the economic woes that Carter took the blame for were due to conditions beyond his control, gas shortages being one of these.

I give Carter credit for a few things, though: First, he did what few leaders are ever willing to do and bite the bullet on inflation. His, and Paul Volcker's, actions probably got the economy corrected a lot sooner than if nothing had been done. It also cost Carter a second term, and I'm sure he knew this. Second, Carter was willing to speak out about the nation's need for a new energy policy. 35 years later, I think we can see that Carter was right, and we got a late start on greater energy independence. Third, Carter was able to go a whole four years without bombing any brown people. That's got to be some kind of achievement. Finally, Carter was the last president we had who told the American people what they needed to hear, not what they wanted to hear. that's a rare quality in any politician.

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:33 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Back to the original topic, and another instance of someone getting "hurt" from his:

Just talked with a buddy this weekend down for the football game. He's 27, married to a stay at home mom (1 child so far). He was reeling as he was just informed by his company, that his insurance premiums will go from $200/month, to $700 starting next year. He's not even paid a salary; he is paid on commission from managing investment portfolios. If I were to tell you that he does quite well for himself, I'm sure people would be quick to show no sympathy. But actually think about what is happening. He has an expense that is almost quadrupling.

Absolutely ridiculous. Hell, $700/month is what plenty of people pay for their mortgage payments.

In my neck of the woods, I have yet to meet ONE PERSON out of any friends, family, acquaintances, etc that is excited about it.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:54 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Nobody cares, or at least nobody should care, about the personal stories of people you know. You cannot be informed or make informed decisions based on anecdotes. If I could produce enough people to fill a football stadium think the ACA is better than sex, it would still be irrelevant, because there is no complete data set to contextualize the opinions of those people.

Please don't make this conversation any dumber than it needs to be, and this is coming from a guy who posted a video of a chimpanzee eating his own dookie.

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Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:01 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Ken wrote:
Nobody cares, or at least nobody should care, about the personal stories of people you know. You cannot be informed or make informed decisions based on anecdotes. If I could produce enough people to fill a football stadium think the ACA is better than sex, it would still be irrelevant, because there is no complete data set to contextualize the opinions of those people.


But these personal stories of people I know can be expanded to millions of people, pretty much the entire middle class. People SHOULD care about that; and it seems that they do.

Also, I agree one cannot make informed decisions based on anecdotes...there is no data sample in the world that can contextualize or be used to predict the next mass murder...but every time one happens, at random, politicians use that instance to bring up gun control, and how guns are bad.

Finally, I keep bringing up stories, more over instances that are forming right now that I'm privy to of how this bill is terrible. Does anybody on here want to provide examples of how it will help someone they know?


Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:09 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Ken wrote:
Nobody cares, or at least nobody should care, about the personal stories of people you know. You cannot be informed or make informed decisions based on anecdotes. If I could produce enough people to fill a football stadium think the ACA is better than sex, it would still be irrelevant, because there is no complete data set to contextualize the opinions of those people.


But these personal stories of people I know can be expanded to millions of people, pretty much the entire middle class. People SHOULD care about that; and it seems that they do.

Also, I agree one cannot make informed decisions based on anecdotes...there is no data sample in the world that can contextualize or be used to predict the next mass murder...but every time one happens, at random, politicians use that instance to bring up gun control, and how guns are bad.

Finally, I keep bringing up stories, more over instances that are forming right now that I'm privy to of how this bill is terrible. Does anybody on here want to provide examples of how it will help someone they know?

Most politicians aren't saying guns are bad, they just want more restrictions so that the average person can't just buy a machine gun online with no background checks like James Holmes did.


Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Having looked into this last night, Obama at the very least knowingly lie .... er ... mislead a few million of his loyal subjec .... er the electorate.

But come on, the Obama party had to come crashing. It was bullshit on stilts to begin with.

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Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:00 am
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
Ken wrote:
Nobody cares, or at least nobody should care, about the personal stories of people you know.


Still doesn't stop President Obama from bringing up the "everyday success stories of ordinary citizens with the ACA"....until it turns out that mistakes were made at the state level and that person isn't getting the cheery basket of goodness they thought they were.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... p-process/

Hopefully things turn out all right for this lady in the end.


Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:03 am
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Post Re: Obligatory Obamacare thread
NotHughGrant wrote:
But come on, the Obama party had to come crashing. It was bullshit on stilts to begin with.


Second terms of US presidencies (regardless of party affiliation) are generally more challenged and less successful than first terms. I don't know why Obama's would be any different.


Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:05 am
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