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Is anybody on this forum like me? 
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Ken wrote:
It's not even a fetus until eight weeks.

As long as we're talking about defining things.


Fair enough,


Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:23 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
Don wrote:
1: At what point should the woman be responsible for the body growing inside her and
2: how much impact should she have on it's development. Does she have every right that the child should have or does the child have any rights at all
3: At what point do you consider the child in the womb to be a person.
I say after 6 - 8 weeks if the following link is to go by
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
Once the brain has formed you have a person.

Vexer wrote:
A fetus is not the same as a child, in the early stages it is a cell therefore it has no rights.

At what point does the feotus start to get rights. Becuase it must have some rights.
If you use the same arguement that men have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body, then you cannot state that mother can have the same standard to the child/feotus.
At what point do you consider a feotus should be considered a living concious creature? Is it the day it is born? Is it at the point where it can hear and move? when it is in cell formation which is up to 5 weeks perhaps you are correct and an abortion is fine becuase you are not really hurting anything.
But after 5 weeks the brain has formed, the spine is there. The nerve system has been created, the feotus can feel.

It's not even remotely the same thing, as a cell is a not a person.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Yes there are cases where children can live even if the doctor says otherwise, but that dosen't mean it will be true in every instance, so you can understand why some women would see giving birth to someone they know is at a high risk of dying within minutes to be more cruel then abortion. I wouldn't want to live for only a few seconds, that would be worse then not living at all to me.


Here's where I disagree. It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all. Also, that child is already living. Birth and Life happen at two different times. Even as early as before the fetus is formed, that cell is alive. At the point we're talking the child is basically fully formed, very much alive. So your argument about preferring to live for a few seconds rather than dying isn't solid I don't think.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:57 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Yes there are cases where children can live even if the doctor says otherwise, but that dosen't mean it will be true in every instance, so you can understand why some women would see giving birth to someone they know is at a high risk of dying within minutes to be more cruel then abortion. I wouldn't want to live for only a few seconds, that would be worse then not living at all to me.


Here's where I disagree. It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all. Also, that child is already living. Birth and Life happen at two different times. Even as early as before the fetus is formed, that cell is alive. At the point we're talking the child is basically fully formed, very much alive. So your argument about preferring to live for a few seconds rather than dying isn't solid I don't think.

Life does not begin at conception period.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:14 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Gedmud wrote:
It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all.


This.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:53 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Yes there are cases where children can live even if the doctor says otherwise, but that dosen't mean it will be true in every instance, so you can understand why some women would see giving birth to someone they know is at a high risk of dying within minutes to be more cruel then abortion. I wouldn't want to live for only a few seconds, that would be worse then not living at all to me.


Here's where I disagree. It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all. Also, that child is already living. Birth and Life happen at two different times. Even as early as before the fetus is formed, that cell is alive. At the point we're talking the child is basically fully formed, very much alive. So your argument about preferring to live for a few seconds rather than dying isn't solid I don't think.

Life does not begin at conception period.


Can you please, just once, address more than one small part of my question? "AT THE POINT WE'RE TALKING THE CHILD IS BASICALLY FULLY FORMED, very much alive. So your argument about preferring to live for a few seconds rather than dying isn't solid I don't think." This is what I'm interested in hearing from you about.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Steven wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all.


This.

Not this.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Yes there are cases where children can live even if the doctor says otherwise, but that dosen't mean it will be true in every instance, so you can understand why some women would see giving birth to someone they know is at a high risk of dying within minutes to be more cruel then abortion. I wouldn't want to live for only a few seconds, that would be worse then not living at all to me.


Here's where I disagree. It is not more cruel to give life a chance than to not give it a chance at all. Also, that child is already living. Birth and Life happen at two different times. Even as early as before the fetus is formed, that cell is alive. At the point we're talking the child is basically fully formed, very much alive. So your argument about preferring to live for a few seconds rather than dying isn't solid I don't think.

Life does not begin at conception period.


Huh. Who would have guessed that those were dead cells doing all of that multiplying, developing and feeding.

Actually I heard somewhere that "life begins at 40", but that was a while ago.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:26 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Did I say they were "dead cells"? No.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Did I say they were "dead cells"? No.


hello Vexer,
I have been following your train of thought in this forum and although i do not aggree with your opinion I can accept them.
How and ever, I would like you to answer one question for me.
At what point do you consider the "whatever it is " inside the mother's womb to be a person?
and I would like you to consider the following. This is quite a personal one, so I don't expect a reply to it.
Would you have an abortion?


Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:32 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Did I say they were "dead cells"? No.


hello Vexer,
I have been following your train of thought in this forum and although i do not aggree with your opinion I can accept them.
How and ever, I would like you to answer one question for me.
At what point do you consider the "whatever it is " inside the mother's womb to be a person?
and I would like you to consider the following. This is quite a personal one, so I don't expect a reply to it.
Would you have an abortion?


Vexer's a dude. So, no, Vexer would not have an abortion.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:46 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Steven wrote:
p604 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Did I say they were "dead cells"? No.


hello Vexer,
I have been following your train of thought in this forum and although i do not aggree with your opinion I can accept them.
How and ever, I would like you to answer one question for me.
At what point do you consider the "whatever it is " inside the mother's womb to be a person?
and I would like you to consider the following. This is quite a personal one, so I don't expect a reply to it.
Would you have an abortion?


Vexer's a dude. So, no, Vexer would not have an abortion.


My misstake.
How and ever, let me readdress the question.
Would you want your wife/partner/sister to have an abortion?


Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
If I may ask, how will his answer affect your conclusions?

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:46 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
There are some points that I don't think anyone has addressed yet: what about the metaphysical and theological implications? At what point does one have a "soul?"


Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
There are some points that I don't think anyone has addressed yet: what about the metaphysical and theological implications? At what point does one have a "soul?"


The reason that I haven't addressed this question is that I don't think it has any place in politics. If we're talking about whether abortion should be legal or not, religion should not be part of the equation.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
There's a reason why I'm pro-choice. Emphasis on the word "choice." Rape and risk of birth defects are perfectly legitimate reasons IMHO. But in cases where there are no health issues, like financial concerns, for example? That's tougher, but I'm still for it. Isn't this world too overpopulated as is? Aren't too many children born into broken families?

Frankly, the "8-10-12-17-week or whatever" part of this means little to me. Should a body (the unborn child/fetus) have rights if it cannot yet exist independently of another (its mother)?

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:31 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
KWRoss wrote:
There's a reason why I'm pro-choice. Emphasis on the word "choice." Rape and risk of birth defects are perfectly legitimate reasons IMHO. But in cases where there are no health issues, like financial concerns, for example? That's tougher, but I'm still for it. Isn't this world too overpopulated as is? Aren't too many children born into broken families?

Frankly, the "8-10-12-17-week or whatever" part of this means little to me. Should a body (the unborn child/fetus) have rights if it cannot yet exist independently of another (its mother)?


The dependency argument holds little clout for me. Even after it is born, there's no way a baby can live independently. And nobody's arguing that infants shouldn't have rights because they depend on others to survive.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:37 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
The whole abortion argument is actually very personal/emotional to me right now. My mom is presently pregnant, and the idea that it would be legal to kill my younger sibling is nauseating to me.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:44 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Would I want my significant other/wife/sister to have an abortion? Well that would depend on her feelings, if she didn't feel safe having the child or if she wasn't ready for whatever reason, I most certainly would support her decision and wouldn't try and talk her out of it.

Sorry to hear that Steven, but the reality is that it's your mothers choice to make as it's HER body, not yours. Did your mom specify exactly why she wanted to have an abortion? If my mom was in that situation I wouldn't find it "sickening" as she simply would not have the time or money to take care of another kid, so maybe that's the case with your mom.

KWRoss-A thousand times yes to that, I think it's much worse for a kid to be born and raised in an abusive household then to not give birth to him at all.

Personally I don't believe anybody has a "soul", I always thought that the whole concept of a soul was complete and utter nonsense.

If I was a woman I would NOT want to give birth to a child period after hearing about how much pain women go through during the childbirth process, I would just stick to adoption.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
There are some points that I don't think anyone has addressed yet: what about the metaphysical and theological implications? At what point does one have a "soul?"

In a discussion in which people can't even agree on what constitutes a separate, distinct life form, how do you expect them to agree on what constitutes a soul?

Actually, that question is about a thousand times more interesting and worth talking about than this trite pro-life/pro-choice debate. I propose a change in focus.

What is a soul?


First person who says "a miserable pile of secrets" gets the dunce cap.

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Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:47 am
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