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Is anybody on this forum like me? 
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
What about in the case of rape or when the baby or mother is in danger of dying? Would you still oppose abortion then? For me a fetus is not a human being as it cannot think or feel anything, so it is not "murder" in any sense of the word.


This is quite a contentions issue. In ireland we had recently had an abortion referendum. I am of the following opinion.
it has been decided that
If the birth is life threatening to the mother then an abortion can be attained.
But who decides what defines life threatening. If the pregnancy is causing the women so much stress that she might consider suicide. Now is this life threatening for the mother? and should she have an abortion because of it.
how do you prove that a woman is suicidal?
I spoken to many people regarding abortion and the best argument against abortion is as follows.
Who speaks for the child?
You cannot get past this argument.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
What about in the case of rape or when the baby or mother is in danger of dying? Would you still oppose abortion then? For me a fetus is not a human being as it cannot think or feel anything, so it is not "murder" in any sense of the word.


This is quite a contentions issue. In ireland we had recently had an abortion referendum. I am of the following opinion.
it has been decided that
If the birth is life threatening to the mother then an abortion can be attained.
But who decides what defines life threatening. If the pregnancy is causing the women so much stress that she might consider suicide. Now is this life threatening for the mother? and should she have an abortion because of it.
how do you prove that a woman is suicidal?
I spoken to many people regarding abortion and the best argument against abortion is as follows.
Who speaks for the child?
You cannot get past this argument.

I'm not talking about stress, i'm talking about stuff like this: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Issues-that-Cause-Birth-Complications-Death-67791.shtml

Also a fetus is not a "child", so that argument dosen't hold any water whatsoever.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:39 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
I'm not talking about stress, i'm talking about stuff like this: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-10-Issues-that-Cause-Birth-Complications-Death-67791.shtml

Also a fetus is not a "child", so that argument dosen't hold any water whatsoever.


Note: before i go any further I need to state the following.
I would not my wife to have an abortion, how and ever, if you want one then I have no right to stop you.
At what point does the fetus become a child?
it is not the day the child is born.
Who decides when this occurs?
I had a look at your link and determined the following:
I would surmise that the 10 issues listed affect developing countries more than anywhere else
Look at the following site
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html
This states that recently there were 15 deaths per 100,000 births in the U.S.

I would offer the following link as an argument against abortion
http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons.htm
It states that the main reasons for abortions are as follows
1:negative impact on the mother's life
2:financial instability
3:relationship problems /unwillingness to be a single mother

i looked at another link which said that stated
http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm
13% said there were "possible problems affecting the health of the fetus"
12% said there were "physical problems with my health"

The other 75% are not justified

I feel that if you become pregnant but cannot face a baby in your life. then have the baby and give it away, there are so many people in the world who desperately want a baby but cannot.
There is a stigma in having a baby and giving it away, but this needs to change.
Having an abortion were there is no health issues is a sin. I'm not talking religious sin but more like an occurrence that should never happen.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
No, having an abortion where there are no health issues is NOT I repeat NOT a sin! :evil: That is complete and utter bullshit. You're basically saying that if a woman is raped then she HAS to have the child since there are no "health issues" involved.

Here's some good arguments in favor of abortion.

http://amplifyyourvoice.org/u/pheo152/2009/01/26/10-arguments-in-favor-of-prochoice-policy

Personally I don't think men have any right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies unless they are the father of the child(and only if they're actually a good parent, if they're a rapist or a deadbeat dad, then they have no say) the misogynism displayed by the GOP towards women is sickening.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:29 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
No, having an abortion where there are no health issues is NOT I repeat NOT a sin! :evil: That is complete and utter bullshit. You're basically saying that if a woman is raped then she HAS to have the child since there are no "health issues" involved.

Here's some good arguments in favor of abortion.

http://amplifyyourvoice.org/u/pheo152/2009/01/26/10-arguments-in-favor-of-prochoice-policy

Personally I don't think men have any right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies unless they are the father of the child(and only if they're actually a good parent, if they're a rapist or a deadbeat dad, then they have no say) the misogynism displayed by the GOP towards women is sickening.


None of the arguments if favor of abortion--even the rape one--hold any water if the fetus is, in fact, a human being. That question--when does the fetus become a human being--is the whole crux of the issue, IMO.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is: we have no idea.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:45 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
dps wrote:
Vexer wrote:
No, having an abortion where there are no health issues is NOT I repeat NOT a sin! :evil: That is complete and utter bullshit. You're basically saying that if a woman is raped then she HAS to have the child since there are no "health issues" involved.

Here's some good arguments in favor of abortion.

http://amplifyyourvoice.org/u/pheo152/2009/01/26/10-arguments-in-favor-of-prochoice-policy

Personally I don't think men have any right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies unless they are the father of the child(and only if they're actually a good parent, if they're a rapist or a deadbeat dad, then they have no say) the misogynism displayed by the GOP towards women is sickening.


None of the arguments if favor of abortion--even the rape one--hold any water if the fetus is, in fact, a human being. That question--when does the fetus become a human being--is the whole crux of the issue, IMO.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is: we have no idea.

Most agree that it's near the end of the second trimester and the third-trimester is when it begins to have thoughts and feelings, but before then it's just a cell.

I'm also highly supportive of stem cell research.


Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:57 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
dps wrote:
None of the arguments if favor of abortion--even the rape one--hold any water if the fetus is, in fact, a human being. That question--when does the fetus become a human being--is the whole crux of the issue, IMO.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is: we have no idea.


I think that the question, who speaks for the child really applies here. Is is the unborn child's fault that the the mother had sex? either forced, coerced or complicit?
I have looked at this several ways and there is no going past this.

The birth of a child is gift, a beautiful thing.
I think that if you are pregnant and don't want the child then why not give it away?
Everyone wins. A childless couple has a child, the mother can go back to her life.
One could also argue that having the baby would also mean that the mother would be more careful in future. I realize that this is a very contentious statement but I lack the vocabulary to say it any differently.
Also young women argument that they are not ready to have a baby should be advised as thus.
If you don't want to become pregnant don't have have sex.
There are loads of alternatives to full on sex. I could list them if you like.
In terms of rape, Yes Rape is a horrible thing, there is no justification for it. A Rapist should have it nether region removed. End of story. How and ever last year 25.000 abortions in America were the result of an unwanted pregnancy from rape.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/08/the-legitimate-children-of-rape.html
According to this link that's 25,000 out of 3,000,000. Which is 9%.
There is a argument to made that these abortions could be justified. How and ever, we have the morning after pill which should deal with some of these.


Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:17 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
dps wrote:
None of the arguments if favor of abortion--even the rape one--hold any water if the fetus is, in fact, a human being. That question--when does the fetus become a human being--is the whole crux of the issue, IMO.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question is: we have no idea.


I think that the question, who speaks for the child really applies here. Is is the unborn child's fault that the the mother had sex? either forced, coerced or complicit?
I have looked at this several ways and there is no going past this.

The birth of a child is gift, a beautiful thing.
I think that if you are pregnant and don't want the child then why not give it away?
Everyone wins. A childless couple has a child, the mother can go back to her life.
One could also argue that having the baby would also mean that the mother would be more careful in future. I realize that this is a very contentious statement but I lack the vocabulary to say it any differently.
Also young women argument that they are not ready to have a baby should be advised as thus.
If you don't want to become pregnant don't have have sex.
There are loads of alternatives to full on sex. I could list them if you like.
In terms of rape, Yes Rape is a horrible thing, there is no justification for it. A Rapist should have it nether region removed. End of story. How and ever last year 25.000 abortions in America were the result of an unwanted pregnancy from rape.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/08/the-legitimate-children-of-rape.html
According to this link that's 25,000 out of 3,000,000. Which is 9%.
There is a argument to made that these abortions could be justified. How and ever, we have the morning after pill which should deal with some of these.

That line "if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex" is one of the laziest strawman arguments against abortion i've ever heard :roll: Women should NOT have to abstain from sex just cause they don't want to get pregnant, that's what birth control is for. Unfortunately it dosen't always work, therefore abortion is for those times, unfortunately cases like this show that many people are still completely backwards on this matterhttp://journalstar.com/news/local/petition-urges-investigation-into-judge-s-abortion-ruling/article_b88b28d3-82a7-530d-8eb2-13b225638872.htmla 16-year old should NOT have to suffer because some judge is a sexist misogynist asshole.

Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:04 pm
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Can you explain that a little further? There is never certainty when you're talking about the death of a child. The only thing that is certain is that it will die if you kill it (abortion). A friend of mine had a baby that was supposed to die shortly after he was born. He didn't. The doctors then estimated he had a month left under heavy care at the hospital. He is now 2. I find it hard to find justifiable reasoning to abort any child at any stage, but specifically talking about your point in quotes, I think my example holds a lot of weight. What do you think about this? I would argue further but so far all you've done is call most of the opposing arguments "lazy" in defense, which really isn't helpful, is very recycled, and lacks a lot of humility. Besides that point, I am interested in what you have to say about my argument to your point in quotes.

Edit: Also, what is it that you are implying about human deformity?

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:16 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Can you explain that a little further? There is never certainty when you're talking about the death of a child. The only thing that is certain is that it will die if you kill it (abortion). A friend of mine had a baby that was supposed to die shortly after he was born. He didn't. The doctors then estimated he had a month left under heavy care at the hospital. He is now 2. I find it hard to find justifiable reasoning to abort any child at any stage, but specifically talking about your point in quotes, I think my example holds a lot of weight. What do you think about this? I would argue further but so far all you've done is call most of the opposing arguments "lazy" in defense, which really isn't helpful, is very recycled, and lacks a lot of humility. Besides that point, I am interested in what you have to say about my argument to your point in quotes.

Edit: Also, what is it that you are implying about human deformity?

A fetus and a child are not the same thing, in the early stages the fetus is incapable of feeling or thought, therefore terminating it is not "murder". Some people may be willing to take a chance on their baby not dying after being born, but not everyone is willing to take that kind of a risk.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:19 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Can you explain that a little further? There is never certainty when you're talking about the death of a child. The only thing that is certain is that it will die if you kill it (abortion). A friend of mine had a baby that was supposed to die shortly after he was born. He didn't. The doctors then estimated he had a month left under heavy care at the hospital. He is now 2. I find it hard to find justifiable reasoning to abort any child at any stage, but specifically talking about your point in quotes, I think my example holds a lot of weight. What do you think about this? I would argue further but so far all you've done is call most of the opposing arguments "lazy" in defense, which really isn't helpful, is very recycled, and lacks a lot of humility. Besides that point, I am interested in what you have to say about my argument to your point in quotes.

Edit: Also, what is it that you are implying about human deformity?

A fetus and a child are not the same thing, in the early stages the fetus is incapable of feeling or thought, therefore terminating it is not "murder". Some people may be willing to take a chance on their baby not dying after being born, but not everyone is willing to take that kind of a risk.
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Can you explain that a little further? There is never certainty when you're talking about the death of a child. The only thing that is certain is that it will die if you kill it (abortion). A friend of mine had a baby that was supposed to die shortly after he was born. He didn't. The doctors then estimated he had a month left under heavy care at the hospital. He is now 2. I find it hard to find justifiable reasoning to abort any child at any stage, but specifically talking about your point in quotes, I think my example holds a lot of weight. What do you think about this? I would argue further but so far all you've done is call most of the opposing arguments "lazy" in defense, which really isn't helpful, is very recycled, and lacks a lot of humility. Besides that point, I am interested in what you have to say about my argument to your point in quotes.

Edit: Also, what is it that you are implying about human deformity?

A fetus and a child are not the same thing, in the early stages the fetus is incapable of feeling or thought, therefore terminating it is not "murder". Some people may be willing to take a chance on their baby not dying after being born, but not everyone is willing to take that kind of a risk.


If this credible-looking website is to be believed, a fetus feels pain at week 12 and has thoughts (dreams) at Week 17.
http://www.newhealthguide.org/When-Does ... tbeat.html

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:38 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also the birth of a cihld isn't always so "wonderful" if the child is at risk for being severely deformed or it's known that the child will die within minutes of being born, for me giving birth to a child that you know will die within minutes is much more cruel then aborting them.


Can you explain that a little further? There is never certainty when you're talking about the death of a child. The only thing that is certain is that it will die if you kill it (abortion). A friend of mine had a baby that was supposed to die shortly after he was born. He didn't. The doctors then estimated he had a month left under heavy care at the hospital. He is now 2. I find it hard to find justifiable reasoning to abort any child at any stage, but specifically talking about your point in quotes, I think my example holds a lot of weight. What do you think about this? I would argue further but so far all you've done is call most of the opposing arguments "lazy" in defense, which really isn't helpful, is very recycled, and lacks a lot of humility. Besides that point, I am interested in what you have to say about my argument to your point in quotes.

Edit: Also, what is it that you are implying about human deformity?

A fetus and a child are not the same thing, in the early stages the fetus is incapable of feeling or thought, therefore terminating it is not "murder". Some people may be willing to take a chance on their baby not dying after being born, but not everyone is willing to take that kind of a risk.


I didn't ask you about the difference between a fetus and a child, I already know we disagree about that and don't need to argue about it. But "not everyone is willing to take that chance" is not a justification, it's a cop-out. You didn't talk about human deformity and how that is some how a justification either.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:49 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
It is not a "cop-out" it's a legimate reason, it's a huge burden to ask a mother to give birth to a child knowing there's risk that it will die within minutes.

Human deformity is also a legitimate concern, particularly if it's severe, for me giving birth to a child you know is going to come out deformed(I.E. no arms or no legs) is more cruel then simply aborting it.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:53 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
But who are we to make that decision? How do we assume the responsibility of choosing life? No legs or no life.. there really isn't anyway we can choose for that kid.

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Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:58 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Gedmud wrote:
But who are we to make that decision? How do we assume the responsibility of choosing life? No legs or no life.. there really isn't anyway we can choose for that kid.

You're right, it's not my place to make that decision nor is it yours, it's up to the mother to make that decision. Men who are not the father of the child have NO right to try and control womens bodies.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:10 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
But who are we to make that decision? How do we assume the responsibility of choosing life? No legs or no life.. there really isn't anyway we can choose for that kid.

You're right, it's not my place to make that decision nor is it yours, it's up to the mother to make that decision. Men who are not the father of the child have NO right to try and control womens bodies.


I can see your point about men telling women how to control their bodies.
How and ever if you bring this point further
have some question I'ld like you to consider and respond to?
1: At what point should the woman be responsible for the body growing inside her and
2: how much impact should she have on it's development. Does she have every right that the child should have or does the child have any rights at all
3: At what point do you consider the child in the womb to be a person.
I say after 6 - 8 weeks if the following link is to go by
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
Once the brain has formed you have a person.
I put forward the arguement again. Who speaks for the unborn child? Everyone has a right to live, live it be for a couple of seconds, a month or a year.
I saw your arguement about women being told that the a child will not live long after being born, so why have the child? There is a couple at work who were told the same thing and 3 years later her child is still healthy.

On another topic, how do you feel about the overpopulation in developing countries.
How would you solve it.
I suggest that once a man has fathered 3 children, then chemically castrate him.
It would reduce the 10 or more children that a mother is having which she cannot physically stand or afford.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:39 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
But who are we to make that decision? How do we assume the responsibility of choosing life? No legs or no life.. there really isn't anyway we can choose for that kid.

You're right, it's not my place to make that decision nor is it yours, it's up to the mother to make that decision. Men who are not the father of the child have NO right to try and control womens bodies.


I can see your point about men telling women how to control their bodies.
How and ever if you bring this point further
have some question I'ld like you to consider and respond to?
1: At what point should the woman be responsible for the body growing inside her and
2: how much impact should she have on it's development. Does she have every right that the child should have or does the child have any rights at all
3: At what point do you consider the child in the womb to be a person.
I say after 6 - 8 weeks if the following link is to go by
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
Once the brain has formed you have a person.
I put forward the arguement again. Who speaks for the unborn child? Everyone has a right to live, live it be for a couple of seconds, a month or a year.
I saw your arguement about women being told that the a child will not live long after being born, so why have the child? There is a couple at work who were told the same thing and 3 years later her child is still healthy.

On another topic, how do you feel about the overpopulation in developing countries.
How would you solve it.
I suggest that once a man has fathered 3 children, then chemically castrate him.
It would reduce the 10 or more children that a mother is having which she cannot physically stand or afford.

A fetus is not the same as a child, in the early stages it is a cell therefore it has no rights.

A woman will not know right away after pregnant that she will be unable to safely give birth, it takes a few weeks for the doctor to make that determination.

Yes there are cases where children can live even if the doctor says otherwise, but that dosen't mean it will be true in every instance, so you can understand why some women would see giving birth to someone they know is at a high risk of dying within minutes to be more cruel then abortion. I wouldn't want to live for only a few seconds, that would be worse then not living at all to me.

I agree that women should not have more kids then they can afford(The Duggar family on TLC should not be allowed to breed period) but you see that happening more in third-world countries then in the U.S., i'm not overly familiar with customs of countries suffering from overpopulation, so I can't really say much on population control(though I certainly don't approve of China's solution to the problem, which is only creating even more problems)


Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:50 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
p604 wrote:
I suggest that once a man has fathered 3 children, then chemically castrate him.
It would reduce the 10 or more children that a mother is having which she cannot physically stand or afford.


Not when she has 'em by 7 or 8 different guys.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:27 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
Don wrote:
1: At what point should the woman be responsible for the body growing inside her and
2: how much impact should she have on it's development. Does she have every right that the child should have or does the child have any rights at all
3: At what point do you consider the child in the womb to be a person.
I say after 6 - 8 weeks if the following link is to go by
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
Once the brain has formed you have a person.

Vexer wrote:
A fetus is not the same as a child, in the early stages it is a cell therefore it has no rights.

At what point does the feotus start to get rights. Becuase it must have some rights.
If you use the same arguement that men have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body, then you cannot state that mother can have the same standard to the child/feotus.
At what point do you consider a feotus should be considered a living concious creature? Is it the day it is born? Is it at the point where it can hear and move? when it is in cell formation which is up to 5 weeks perhaps you are correct and an abortion is fine becuase you are not really hurting anything.
But after 5 weeks the brain has formed, the spine is there. The nerve system has been created, the feotus can feel.


Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:26 am
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Post Re: Is anybody on this forum like me?
It's not even a fetus until eight weeks.

As long as we're talking about defining things.

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