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The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict 
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Yeah!

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Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:09 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Some pornography might lighten up the mood in this thread at least.

Johnny Larue wrote:

Would that be just the average everyday black person or the black person dealing or abusing drugs?

So many statistics and anecdotal statements are thrown around often as if in a vacuum with little regard for circumstantial context. Issues as large as these can't be simplistically boiled down to naked statistics and sound bites when looking for root cause and potential solutions.

As far as the OP concerning KWRoss' old acquaintance who hates all things Obama, there's not a lot you can do about such absolutists. People on the right had to endure several years of wingnuts on the left criticizing every one of GW Bush's moves, before that people on the left had to endure the Clinton bashers, and now we have the Obama bashers. And there's your history. Obviously we've had extremist opinions for much longer, but ever since Al Gore invented the internet, that has ushered in a whole new level of bashing and the ability to get your message in front of hundreds/thousands/millions of eyeballs without it costing you an arm and a leg. This is the reality we now live in and I don't see it changing any time soon.

How do you deal with it? Well you can respond to it and let it the ensuing flame war damage your soul, or you can just ignore it and move on with your life. Who gives a shit what that asshole thinks anyway?


Yup. I suppose you're right about that. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

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Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:41 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Johnny Larue wrote:
Vexer wrote:
blacks especially are much more likely to be convincted of drug offenses then caucasians(48 times more likely to be specific).


Would that be just the average everyday black person or the black person dealing or abusing drugs?

So many statistics and anecdotal statements are thrown around often as if in a vacuum with little regard for circumstantial context. Issues as large as these can't be simplistically boiled down to naked statistics and sound bites when looking for root cause and potential solutions.

As far as the OP concerning KWRoss' old acquaintance who hates all things Obama, there's not a lot you can do about such absolutists. People on the right had to endure several years of wingnuts on the left criticizing every one of GW Bush's moves, before that people on the left had to endure the Clinton bashers, and now we have the Obama bashers. And there's your history. Obviously we've had extremist opinions for much longer, but ever since Al Gore invented the internet, that has ushered in a whole new level of bashing and the ability to get your message in front of hundreds/thousands/millions of eyeballs without it costing you an arm and a leg. This is the reality we now live in and I don't see it changing any time soon.

How do you deal with it? Well you can respond to it and let it the ensuing flame war damage your soul, or you can just ignore it and move on with your life. Who gives a shit what that asshole thinks anyway?
I mean the average black person, and in case you're wondering, I got that figure from this book right here-http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Rikers-Stories-Worlds-Largest/dp/B0071UJ74C While the book focuses more on prison life itself then race, racial disparity is a considerable factor since a staggering 90% of all Riker's inamtes are black. Some of the stories in that book are absolutely heartbreaking.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:00 am
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Shade -

Quote:
I don't live in the UK and I'm not overly informed on the racial systems there, so I won't comment. But in the States, the disparity of opportunity is all about poverty, not about race. And if saying what you said doesn't make you a Nazi baby-eater, me saying that blacks face a tougher road doesn't make me a leftist tree-hugger. Blacks still occupy 40% of our prisons even though they're only 13% of the population.

Does that mean people don't have individual choices? Of course not. Those who say blacks have no chance are as offensive as those who say all blacks are criminals. But clearly there's a systematic breakdown, not just of the race aspect (although racism remains prevalent in the States), but of the aspect of where those born into poverty are ending up in the alleged land of opportunity.

We don't have to agree on the solutions. If you think that one's blackness makes them more likely to be lazy, a criminal, violent, etc -- then yes, you're a racist scum unfit for human interaction. If you think all black people are treated with equality, then well, you're incorrect, but that alone doesn't make you a racist


Firstly, I’d like to thank you for dragging the debate back into the grown-up realm.

Ok, there’s a woman on our street. She’s of Chinese extraction, but was adopted by an English couple. Is now married to an English guy, and has 3 kids. She is exactly, to a tee, a typical Northern English woman. With a dry, northern accent, dry northern mannerism, a love of a few beers, and (like all good northerners) Chinese food. Her racial background is irrelevant. Not that the UK has an issue with Chinese communities anyway, but she proves that cultural assimilation is everything, and race is nothing.

My point in other threads and this one is that there exists a nihilistic street-culture in the UK, and even more-so, in the US that blacks are disproportionately involved in. This culture is one prone to violence, illegitimacy, and a poor education. These are simple facts. But I don’t believe black people are for one minute racially pre-determined to be like this, and I find the fact I have to explain this time-and-time again to be a symptom of the ultra-low-brow race baiting discourse that takes place today.

If you raise a black guy in rural England, he’ll be just as horrified and mystified by the ghettos of Detroit as anyone else. If you raised Prince William in Watts, he’d be much more likely to have been both a murderer and a victim of murder. It’s a cultural issue, and I agree with you, poverty is a driver. There is a huge, feckless white underclass in the UK. But what more do these people want? Like Ken, and Bill Cosby, said – ultimately it is up to communities to get their own houses in order.

Blacks do face a tougher road. But it’s not just because of racism (most people aren’t racist in my opinion), it’s low expectation that does it. Which is itself racist.

The attitude of the unthinking Vexers of the world is something along the line of "there, there, poor black guy, have a tofffee".

My attitude is more "black people, given a chance, will resolve whatever issues their communities have". This includes expecting black kids, even poor ones, to be properly educated.

Although, my attitude is slighly naive, with all the vested interests out there in victim- stoking and race grievence. Stoking racial tension is an entire industry for pious, middle-class whites

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Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:03 am
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Most people aren't racist? Maybe not where you're from, but i've you've ever been to say Mississipi, West Virginia or Alabama, you wouldn't be saying that, something like 30% of whites are racist in some way.

My attitude? :? Wow you're truly delusional aren't you? I'm not enabling anyone if that's what you're implying. You have no clue what you're talking about, obviously there are some black people who only have themselves to blame for their circumstances, but you're acting like that's the case almost all the time. I have don't low expectations or anything like that, I want minorities to succeed, but the unfortunate truth is that is' much easier said then done with everything they have going against them.


No one's trying to stroke racial tension here, that's just your imagination.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:23 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Vexer wrote:
No one's trying to stroke racial tension here, that's just your imagination.


You are. You just directly implied that I, my friends and neighbors, the people I go to church with, the people my kid's go to school with, etc., are racist. Don't know which parts of Mississippi you hang out in, but there isn't any pervasive racism in my region anymore and there was very little of it in my younger days 35 years ago when I first moved to the region.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:14 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Vex,

Thanks for stereotyping Mississippi, Alabama, and WV. I live in Alabama; moved here when I was two, go to college here, and love the southeast. I'm proud of where I came from, and I really don't know any truly racist people. Sure, I've heard the terms nigger and faggot before, but I've also seen Pulp Fiction as well.

And, If I wanted high taxes, or liberal POSs trying to force the gay on me (in this case I'm using gay as a euphemism for anything I don't like), I'd move to another region: most likely california or anywhere Bloomberg could get an ordnance passed.

Also, just a comment on your "Zimmerman suicide remark:" Why, he is about to get rich. He can writte books, sell tv/film rights, and he has a bonafide lawsuit he can serve CNBC with. He will be fine.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:35 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vex,

Thanks for stereotyping Mississippi, Alabama, and WV. I live in Alabama; moved here when I was two, go to college here, and love the southeast. I'm proud of where I came from, and I really don't know any truly racist people. Sure, I've heard the terms nigger and faggot before, but I've also seen Pulp Fiction as well.

And, If I wanted high taxes, or liberal POSs trying to force the gay on me (in this case I'm using gay as a euphemism for anything I don't like), I'd move to another region: most likely california or anywhere Bloomberg could get an ordnance passed.

Also, just a comment on your "Zimmerman suicide remark:" Why, he is about to get rich. He can writte books, sell tv/film rights, and he has a bonafide lawsuit he can serve CNBC with. He will be fine.


The English language is marvelously complex. Am I right? Having said that, I'm sure there's a better word choice than "gay" to describe something you don't like.

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Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:08 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Not to put words in roastbeef's mouth, but my perception of his use of that word was to demonstrate that there are a lot better words in the English language to describe conservative (or something else that liberals don't like) than "racist".


Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:17 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vex,

Thanks for stereotyping Mississippi, Alabama, and WV. I live in Alabama; moved here when I was two, go to college here, and love the southeast. I'm proud of where I came from, and I really don't know any truly racist people. Sure, I've heard the terms nigger and faggot before, but I've also seen Pulp Fiction as well.

And, If I wanted high taxes, or liberal POSs trying to force the gay on me (in this case I'm using gay as a euphemism for anything I don't like), I'd move to another region: most likely california or anywhere Bloomberg could get an ordnance passed.

Also, just a comment on your "Zimmerman suicide remark:" Why, he is about to get rich. He can writte books, sell tv/film rights, and he has a bonafide lawsuit he can serve CNBC with. He will be fine.

Well you're certainly doing nothing to dispell those sterotypes by saying stupid shit like "Force the Gay" :roll: :evil: That's just a whole level of stupidity. NOBODY I repeat NOBODY can be forced into being gay, you're either born that way or you're not. All you're doing is actively reinforcing those stereotypes, I know not everyone in those states is racist, but they're some of the states where you hear about racism the most often, especially Alabama, which is the only state that does not celebrate MLK's birthday, you tell me how that's not racist.

Zimmerman file a lawsuit? now that's fucking hilarious! :lol: What's he going to sue CNBC for? for telling the truth? People aren't going to want to touch him due to the mass amount of protests that would no doubt ensue, he's basically the white O.J. at the moment, his victory is hollow, he's taken to hiding his face and wearing a bulletproof vest everywhere he goes, he'll be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his miserable life no matter how much money he makes.

I don't need a conservative POS to try and feed me bullshit stories about how climate change is a myth or about Obama not being a real U.S. citizen.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:34 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
CasualDad wrote:
Vexer wrote:
No one's trying to stroke racial tension here, that's just your imagination.


You are. You just directly implied that I, my friends and neighbors, the people I go to church with, the people my kid's go to school with, etc., are racist. Don't know which parts of Mississippi you hang out in, but there isn't any pervasive racism in my region anymore and there was very little of it in my younger days 35 years ago when I first moved to the region.

If you seriously believe that then you're seriously mistaken. I'm not trying to "stroke" anything, i'm telling it like it is. Racism IS still alive and well in Mississipi, perhaps not in your area, but you can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it dosen't exist in the state at all.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/01/21/diary-first-year-teacher-racism-still-alive-and-well-mississippi-delta

http://americablog.com/2012/11/racist-students-riot-in-mississippi-over-obama-win.html


Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:36 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Vexer,

If you really are from Illinois, just know that according to the Violence Policy Center, Illinois ranks 15th in the U.S. with black people being murdered at a rate of 18.69 per 100,000 blacks, while Mississippi ranks 41st with a black homicide victim rate of almost exactly half that. In fact, Illinois is a more hostile environment for black people than all three states that you mentioned. You're the one with your head in the sand. You are stocking the fires of racism by making acusations that are purely based on emotion and information being pushed by race hustlers. I'll take my fingers out of my ears when you remove the blinders from your eyes.

In fact, if you look at the top 10, you will see that the high acheivers in the rate of killing blacks are even more likely to be from the north as from the south.

1-MO
2-MI
3-PA
4-OK
5-LA
6-IN
7-TN
8-WI
9-CA
10-NV

Strangely enough, just about the only things these particular states have in common are large urban centers with high black populations that have been dominated by liberal policies for quite some time. Kansas City, St. Louis, Detroit, Flint, Philidelphia, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Gary, Memphis, Los Angeles, Oakland, Las Vegas. Guess where the highest rates of black homicides are taking place? Dang sure isn't in Mississippi.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:23 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
CasualDad wrote:
Vexer,

If you really are from Illinois, just know that according to the Violence Policy Center, Illinois ranks 15th in the U.S. with black people being murdered at a rate of 18.69 per 100,000 blacks, while Mississippi ranks 41st with a black homicide victim rate of almost exactly half that. In fact, Illinois is a more hostile environment for black people than all three states that you mentioned. You're the one with your head in the sand. You are stocking the fires of racism by making acusations that are purely based on emotion and information being pushed by race hustlers. I'll take my fingers out of my ears when you remove the blinders from your eyes.

In fact, if you look at the top 10, you will see that the high acheivers in the rate of killing blacks are even more likely to be from the north as from the south.

1-MO
2-MI
3-PA
4-OK
5-LA
6-IN
7-TN
8-WI
9-CA
10-NV

Strangely enough, just about the only things these particular states have in common are large urban centers with high black populations that have been dominated by liberal policies for quite some time. Kansas City, St. Louis, Detroit, Flint, Philidelphia, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Gary, Memphis, Los Angeles, Oakland, Las Vegas. Guess where the highest rates of black homicides are taking place? Dang sure isn't in Mississippi.
I was talking about racism, not homicide, way to avoid the subject. I sure as hell don't have my "head in the sand" i'm well aware of Chicago's high murder rate, I don't have "blinders" on, I never said my state didn't have one, so I don't know where the hell you got that idea from :roll:

Blaming "liberal policies" for high murder rates is total nonsense. No one's trying to "stoke fires" and there's no decision based on emotion or anything like that, you're just trying to dodge the subject matter and blame the liberals for everything, because that's so much easier then actually having a rational discussion.

You're talking about two different types of hostility, Illinois dosen't have too many cases of racism, homicide does not equate to racism.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:30 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Vexer wrote:
CasualDad wrote:
Vexer,

If you really are from Illinois, just know that according to the Violence Policy Center, Illinois ranks 15th in the U.S. with black people being murdered at a rate of 18.69 per 100,000 blacks, while Mississippi ranks 41st with a black homicide victim rate of almost exactly half that. In fact, Illinois is a more hostile environment for black people than all three states that you mentioned. You're the one with your head in the sand. You are stocking the fires of racism by making acusations that are purely based on emotion and information being pushed by race hustlers. I'll take my fingers out of my ears when you remove the blinders from your eyes.

In fact, if you look at the top 10, you will see that the high acheivers in the rate of killing blacks are even more likely to be from the north as from the south.

1-MO
2-MI
3-PA
4-OK
5-LA
6-IN
7-TN
8-WI
9-CA
10-NV

Strangely enough, just about the only things these particular states have in common are large urban centers with high black populations that have been dominated by liberal policies for quite some time. Kansas City, St. Louis, Detroit, Flint, Philidelphia, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Gary, Memphis, Los Angeles, Oakland, Las Vegas. Guess where the highest rates of black homicides are taking place? Dang sure isn't in Mississippi.
I was talking about racism, not homicide, way to avoid the subject. I sure as hell don't have my "head in the sand" i'm well aware of Chicago's high murder rate, I don't have "blinders" on, I never said my state didn't have one, so I don't know where the hell you got that idea from :roll:

Blaming "liberal policies" for high murder rates is total nonsense. No one's trying to "stoke fires" and there's no decision based on emotion or anything like that, you're just trying to dodge the subject matter and blame the liberals for everything, because that's so much easier then actually having a rational discussion.

You're talking about two different types of hostility, Illinois dosen't have too many cases of racism, homicide does not equate to racism.


While you're correct that homicide doesn't equate to racism (after all, as has been pointed out, most homocides are either black-on-black or white-on-white), I'm not buying the idea that Illinois doesn't have its share of racists.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:48 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Vexer wrote:
I was talking about racism, not homicide, way to avoid the subject. I sure as hell don't have my "head in the sand" i'm well aware of Chicago's high murder rate, I don't have "blinders" on, I never said my state didn't have one, so I don't know where the hell you got that idea from :roll:

Blaming "liberal policies" for high murder rates is total nonsense. No one's trying to "stoke fires" and there's no decision based on emotion or anything like that, you're just trying to dodge the subject matter and blame the liberals for everything, because that's so much easier then actually having a rational discussion.

You're talking about two different types of hostility, Illinois dosen't have too many cases of racism, homicide does not equate to racism.


Way to turn it back to an emotional feeling that can't be measured. You show me the state by state law enforcement statistics on "racism" and I will come back to the argument. A rational discussion? Apparently in your world its ok to kill black people with social policy - just as long as you don't hate them when you do it.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:07 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
CasualDad wrote:
Vexer wrote:
I was talking about racism, not homicide, way to avoid the subject. I sure as hell don't have my "head in the sand" i'm well aware of Chicago's high murder rate, I don't have "blinders" on, I never said my state didn't have one, so I don't know where the hell you got that idea from :roll:

Blaming "liberal policies" for high murder rates is total nonsense. No one's trying to "stoke fires" and there's no decision based on emotion or anything like that, you're just trying to dodge the subject matter and blame the liberals for everything, because that's so much easier then actually having a rational discussion.

You're talking about two different types of hostility, Illinois dosen't have too many cases of racism, homicide does not equate to racism.


Way to turn it back to an emotional feeling that can't be measured. You show me the state by state law enforcement statistics on "racism" and I will come back to the argument. A rational discussion? Apparently in your world its ok to kill black people with social policy - just as long as you don't hate them when you do it.

I didn't think it was possible, but you're making even less sense now then you did before, I never said anything close to what you're implying, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're resorting to such tactics to try and "win" your argument. Killing blacks with social policy? :roll: Yeah right, can you actually prove that? I'm not turning anything back, you're just turning the conversation away from you so you don't have to answer any tough questions.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:22 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
I have shown that black people are twice as likely to be murdered in your state than they are in mine (which you have called a racist state). You have shown me no comparative evidence to show that my state is somehow more racist than yours. Right now the only two things a black person can assertain from the facts is that Vexer believes that Mississippi is a racist state, and that a black person is twice as likely to be violently murdered in Illinois than in Mississippi.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:45 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
CasualDad wrote:
I have shown that black people are twice as likely to be murdered in your state than they are in mine (which you have called a racist state). You have shown me no comparative evidence to show that my state is somehow more racist than yours. Right now the only two things a black person can assertain from the facts is that Vexer believes that Mississippi is a racist state, and that a black person is twice as likely to be violently murdered in Illinois than in Mississippi.

Here's your evidence:http://www.webpronews.com/alabama-mississippi-win-the-most-racist-on-twitter-award-following-the-election-2012-11

http://www.jimgreenlee.com/racism.htm

http://bossip.com/437391/racism-still-exists-two-car-loads-of-teenagers-drive-to-mississippi-to-find-and-hurt-a-black-person12006/

http://open.salon.com/blog/ryanpsych/2011/08/10/mississippi_is_still_burning_with_racism

http://www.ajr.org/article.asp?id=1311

Also the violence you're refering to is mainly concentrated in the poor neighborhoods in Chicago, but outside the city, black on black crime is not nearly as prevalent. Besides, a higher homicide rate dosen't automatically make a state more racist then one with a lower homicide rate.


Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:23 pm
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
No humility around here. You guys can argue all day long. Some of you make really strong, fact based arguments. Some of you make really strong arguments based on no facts. Some of you make bad arguments based on facts. Some of you say completely moronic things based on nothing.

The point is, it doesn't matter who says what. No ones seems to have the humility to accept when they've been proven wrong. We just get stubborn answers and everyone runs in circles. It takes a lot more maturity to say "you know what, I'm sorry that I generalized that and you're right I don't have any facts to back this up" then it does to hide behind the label of liberal and conservative and accuse everyone of anything you can just to deflect.

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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:16 am
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Post Re: The Chris Lane Murder, and a conflict
Let me be the first, i'm sorry if my posts got a little out of hand at times, because of my Aspberger's Syndrome I have a habit of not always thinking before I post, and I don't always explain as clearly as I could, so my apologies for that.

That said, I still stand by some of my previous statements, but for the sake of avoiding another potential argument, I won't go into detail about which ones.


Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:00 am
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