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Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World 
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
moviemkr7 wrote:
Oh there were. The scene with Michael fassbender and Liam Cunningham was incredible. Everything else sucked


Really? I thought the scene with the Irish prisoners being brought out naked for searching/cleaning was incredible filmmaking.

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
moviemkr7 wrote:
Characters cannot be defined by the most random quirks a writer can come up with, a deadpan antisocial misfit is a deadpan antisocial misfit no matter what he's obsessed with.

Speak up. I can't hear you over my hamburger phone.

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Ken wrote:
moviemkr7 wrote:
Characters cannot be defined by the most random quirks a writer can come up with, a deadpan antisocial misfit is a deadpan antisocial misfit no matter what he's obsessed with.

Speak up. I can't hear you over my hamburger phone.


Nicely played Ken

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:34 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Oh, I do what I can.

I actually rather liked Juno, but I recognize the validity of the criticism it got. Even if that criticism came in the form of an unnecessarily severe backlash.

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Ken wrote:
Oh, I do what I can.

I actually rather liked Juno, but I recognize the validity of the criticism it got. Even if that criticism came in the form of an unnecessarily severe backlash.


Ehhhh I don't think it was that valid. Neither the marketing, the praise for it, nor certainly the movie itself in any way sold the American public on the idea that Juno was "How real people talk in real life." De Sica didn't come out of retirement/death to claim that Juno was the spiritual heir to neo-Realism. The criticism that it was TOO full of quirky dialogue seemed like saying that Star Wars wasn't scientifically accurate.

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Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
I don't object to quirky language/too much quirky language/not realistic enough quirky language as a matter of general principle, but there are times when I think the language is covering for the indistinctiveness of some of the characters. Juno herself is well-developed; don't get me wrong. But I can't watch the movie without a sneaking suspicion that anyone who isn't her or a member of her immediate family is saying things that Juno would say rather than things that they themselves would say. If that makes any sense.

It's not too big of an issue, but I figure that if it's in any way distracting to me, even at a very low level, then there's at least a kernel of merit to the overstated bellyaching of all the Internet trolls.

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Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:48 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Ken wrote:
I don't object to quirky language/too much quirky language/not realistic enough quirky language as a matter of general principle, but there are times when I think the language is covering for the indistinctiveness of some of the characters. Juno herself is well-developed; don't get me wrong. But I can't watch the movie without a sneaking suspicion that anyone who isn't her or a member of her immediate family is saying things that Juno would say rather than things that they themselves would say. If that makes any sense.

It's not too big of an issue, but I figure that if it's in any way distracting to me, even at a very low level, then there's at least a kernel of merit to the overstated bellyaching of all the Internet trolls.

Agreed, Juno didn't really do a whole lot for me, I actually liked Jennifer's Body better.


Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
I don't mind quirky dialogue, depends on the context. The issue was more just that Juno got a lot of attention which it probably didn't deserve. Backlash is only severe if hype is severe.


Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:46 am
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
MGamesCook wrote:
I don't mind quirky dialogue, depends on the context. The issue was more just that Juno got a lot of attention which it probably didn't deserve. Backlash is only severe if hype is severe.


True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.

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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
moviemkr7 wrote:
YOU MUST HAVE DIALOGUE IN YOUR MOVIES! Body language ENHANCES a character, it doesn't MAKE a character. Staring off into space is not deep. This means YOU, Steve McQueen...pretentious dick.


I certainly hope your are not talking about this man:

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Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:00 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
JamesKunz wrote:
True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.

American Beauty is also a good example of organic hype, rather than hype that germinated from an aggressive mass media campaign.

Juno, too.

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Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:18 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Ken wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.

American Beauty is also a good example of organic hype, rather than hype that germinated from an aggressive mass media campaign.

Juno, too.


So true. I think "American Beauty" and "Juno" are examples of two (lukewarm) movies you have to like, like some kind of "default movie taste". In a casual discussion about movies or in certain professional contexts. Otherwise people question your sanity and competence respectively.

So If I were king of the movie world, I would say: ban any kind of "default taste" in movies where you can't go wrong in a casual discussion. There should be not one single movie in a list "what movies you should pretend to like to enhance your social skills". It is an offense to truly great movies.

Please read Ken's signature and you will know what I am talking about.

Examples: I got a lot of heat from liking "Aliens". It's a sequel, it shows too much of the creatures, too mainstream, blah blah....


Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:54 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Threeperf35 wrote:
Ken wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.

American Beauty is also a good example of organic hype, rather than hype that germinated from an aggressive mass media campaign.

Juno, too.


So true. I think "American Beauty" and "Juno" are examples of two (lukewarm) movies you have to like, like some kind of "default movie taste". In a casual discussion about movies or in certain professional contexts. Otherwise people question your sanity and competence respectively.

So If I were king of the movie world, I would say: ban any kind of "default taste" in movies where you can't go wrong in a casual discussion. There should be not one single movie in a list "what movies you should pretend to like to enhance your social skills". It is an offense to truly great movies.

Please read Ken's signature and you will know what I am talking about.

Examples: I got a lot of heat from liking "Aliens". It's a sequel, it shows too much of the creatures, too mainstream, blah blah....

Agreed, one shouldn't have to feel bad for not liking Oscar-nominated films or for liking critically reviled films. As for American Beauty, I think it's a pretentious crapfest that has not aged well at all.


Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
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True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.


The trick is to try and avoid too much hype, even when the movie is great. Admittedly difficult. But I think there's just a fine line. I don't mind a studio using certain promotional tactics to get a person just to see the movie. Appeal to the viewer for the guiltiest possible reasons, that's fine. It's when they use promotional tactics to get a person to think it's good or great before they've even seen it. That's a problem. Especially when it becomes the primary selling point.

So for instance, an example of the first method for American Beauty might be, an appeal to Kevin Spacey Fans. Another might be the promise of nudity. The nudity of course wouldn't have anything to do with the quality of the film, but I think it's a viable way to get butts in the seats. Then the viewer discovers the quality of the movie afterward, not before.

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ban any kind of "default taste" in movies where you can't go wrong in a casual discussion. There should be not one single movie in a list "what movies you should pretend to like to enhance your social skills".


A terrific rule. Can never be overstated.


Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:22 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Threeperf35 wrote:
Ken wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.

American Beauty is also a good example of organic hype, rather than hype that germinated from an aggressive mass media campaign.

Juno, too.


So true. I think "American Beauty" and "Juno" are examples of two (lukewarm) movies you have to like, like some kind of "default movie taste". In a casual discussion about movies or in certain professional contexts. Otherwise people question your sanity and competence respectively.

So If I were king of the movie world, I would say: ban any kind of "default taste" in movies where you can't go wrong in a casual discussion. There should be not one single movie in a list "what movies you should pretend to like to enhance your social skills". It is an offense to truly great movies.

Please read Ken's signature and you will know what I am talking about.

Examples: I got a lot of heat from liking "Aliens". It's a sequel, it shows too much of the creatures, too mainstream, blah blah....


*Furrows brow* Surely you can come up with a better example than that. Other than (apparently) the circles you run in, Aliens is almost universally considered a fantastic movie. Hell I wasn't even aware of the existence of people who had criticisms of the movie beyond "I think the first one is slightly better"

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Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:12 pm
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
True, but hype is not necessarily unrelated to quality. American Beauty got a ton of praise, and then a big backlash, and I still think it's a terrific movie.


The trick is to try and avoid too much hype, even when the movie is great. Admittedly difficult. But I think there's just a fine line. I don't mind a studio using certain promotional tactics to get a person just to see the movie. Appeal to the viewer for the guiltiest possible reasons, that's fine. It's when they use promotional tactics to get a person to think it's good or great before they've even seen it. That's a problem. Especially when it becomes the primary selling point.

So for instance, an example of the first method for American Beauty might be, an appeal to Kevin Spacey Fans. Another might be the promise of nudity. The nudity of course wouldn't have anything to do with the quality of the film, but I think it's a viable way to get butts in the seats. Then the viewer discovers the quality of the movie afterward, not before.

Quote:
ban any kind of "default taste" in movies where you can't go wrong in a casual discussion. There should be not one single movie in a list "what movies you should pretend to like to enhance your social skills".


A terrific rule. Can never be overstated.[/]

Agreed. I think this is why Wes Anderson is as popular as he is.

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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
JamesKunz wrote:
*Furrows brow* Surely you can come up with a better example than that. Other than (apparently) the circles you run in, Aliens is almost universally considered a fantastic movie. Hell I wasn't even aware of the existence of people who had criticisms of the movie beyond "I think the first one is slightly better"


You are correct, this is not the very best example I can come up with, but the average Joe (welcome to Europe BTW) who thinks Alien is way better than Aliens (heard it so many times) is also the same average Joe who thinks Peter Gabriel is better than Phil Collins (heard it so many times) - another default opinon for social skills - Phil Collins is a way better singer (except for the spooky moments) with much more stamina and a great drummer as well -and he and his band had to make it through the 80s, Peter was off the hook at the time - and Phil was just a lower middle class guy from East London. And: Peter Gabriel (the posh high middle class Londoner) went all out pop music when he went solo. Not exactly the same as writing for symphonic orchestras or going quality world music. But again I digress.

My rule still stands: "Don't pretend you like movies because it makes you look good and it is a standard in social conversation and you will be risk-free". Examples: "Ghandi", "A Passage to India", "Out of Africa", "Shakespeare in Love". Hell I even like "Driving Miss Daisy" better than all of the aforementioned, even if it was only for Morgan Freeman who made the very best out of so-so (make that crap) material.


Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:34 am
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
moviemkr7 wrote:
Agreed. I think this is why Wes Anderson is as popular as he is.


Threeperf35 wrote:
You are correct, this is not the very best example I can come up with, but the average Joe (welcome to Europe BTW) who thinks Alien is way better than Aliens (heard it so many times) is also the same average Joe who thinks Peter Gabriel is better than Phil Collins (heard it so many times) - another default opinon for social skills - Phil Collins is a way better singer (except for the spooky moments) with much more stamina and a great drummer as well -and he and his band had to make it through the 80s, Peter was off the hook at the time - and Phil was just a lower middle class guy from East London. And: Peter Gabriel (the posh high middle class Londoner) went all out pop music when he went solo. Not exactly the same as writing for symphonic orchestras or going quality world music. But again I digress.

My rule still stands: "Don't pretend you like movies because it makes you look good and it is a standard in social conversation and you will be risk-free". Examples: "Ghandi", "A Passage to India", "Out of Africa", "Shakespeare in Love". Hell I even like "Driving Miss Daisy" better than all of the aforementioned, even if it was only for Morgan Freeman who made the very best out of so-so (make that crap) material.


The hipster effect. In some ways, it's the more underground version of the event movie/album. In most of the hipster circle's Wes Anderson's movies are the event movies, much the same way the likes of The Avengers and Iron Man are to much of the mainstream blockbuster crowd.

Many of the hipsters tend to look down on naything that might even be remotely mainstream, even a lot of the stuff they encouraged when ti wasn't mainstream. I caught quite a bit of hell from some indie rock buddies when I bought Amy Winehouse's Back To Black in February 2008. But a few of them had been major fans of hers back in the early days, before people all over consciously and subconsciously snapped their fingers to Rehab.

There are certain things the hipsters are right about (The Flaming Lips, THe Coen Brothers etc). But on the whole I find the fact that you have to like anything to be arbitrary. Saying one has to like Moonrise Kingdom is like saying one has to like The Transformers because those movies sold a lot of tickets. I say this as one who has an appreciation for both Aliens and Waking Life.

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Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:07 am
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Yep: the hipster effect.

Sorry but pop/rock music lost me long ago (I must sound like a granddad talking about Collins/Gabriel). I listen to, say, Adele and I fully recognize her talent - she does have great and powerful set of pipes - and I can even hear her "white finds a way to emulate black without it being too obviuous" talent - but folks, throw stones at me, it doesn't give me the goosebumps (and I don't say that because it's the topic on hand). There are tons of rock groups these days who make music I simply don't care about, same as those female singer songwriters who are oh so innovative but play piano like a student during the first or second year - image and set design has become the thing since Mtv started way back in 1980 - maybe it's my age - I'm 52. You won't hear me saying this to professionals and colleagues: I rather be considered a pussy and eat and pay my rent than having the balls and be homeless. That's the name of the game.

Yeah, Kelly Clarkson for example has some real cool stuff and she can sang, but somehow it's considered uncool talking about her. At least nobody I know does talk about her. No, Adele is the shit - at least she is way better (IMHO) than, say, Norah Jones, who was the shit some ten years ago. All famous singers at the time made sure, in interviews when the topic came up, they "loved" her. I found her singing and playing boring and more about posture than music. Her piano skills are just slightly better than Alicia Keys'. I'd say very poor.

Same with movies. As I said before: I worked as a composer for tv commercials during about 15 years. There was a kind of movie and music you had to like (incluiding club techno - chill out) if you said you don't like it - you were read as incompetent. Easy as that. Show your balls and you lose your job for good. It's easy to say: "don't be a pussy". I can say the truth: "I love the Hammond and guitar in the intro of "Foreplay/Long Time" from Boston (1976) - (not the mainstreamy song "Long Time") which BTW was a hot rodded M3 (by Tom Scholz) not even the grand B3 (which Scholz couldn't afford at the time). Naw, never mention that stuff if yo
you want to keep your job. Many critrics fake their real taste to stay in the game (even though in a more subtle way).

If I was king of the movie world, this would be questioned in each case (why exactly did you love Juno - the Burger-phone?) and banned if necessary. Without sounding like licking his ass. Please read Ken's sig. There's my exact opinion.


Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:54 am
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Post Re: Rules You Would Make If You Were King of the Movie World
Mainly agree about the effect and to some extent the movies you listed, except a few. Aliens has been mentioned. I think Shakespeare in Love is unfortunate that it has received the gleam of high-brow from the awards it won. At heart it's just a fun crowd-pleaser romantic comedy. I love Juno; have rewatched it every year (or few). The reason? It just makes me happy. Being a foreigner, I recognize the quirkiness in the speech but don't really feel bothered by it that much, because it's not the trait that defined the character (she may not be a fully complex character, but she's pretty well-developed). And whatever quirkiness there is, it's offset by the normal foster family she encountered. Jennifer Garner is my favorite performance of the movie, so touching and sincere that even Juno's quirky traits subside when she's with her.

As for Wes Anderson, I have avoided his works a long time exactly because of this reason, but then I saw Fantastic Mr. Fox and Moonrise Kingdom and loved both of them (especially the former). I have heard though that those two are the most mainstream he has been, so maybe I haven't gotten to the insufferable ones yet (or maybe his quirky style just synches with me).


Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:43 am
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