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Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President 
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Ragnarok73 wrote:
Johnny Larue wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:
To Johnny: China will become the most powerful economy in the world once they've finished shaking off the last remnants of their communist system. They have one of the biggest markets and a wealth of untapped resources within their borders. They also don't spend nearly the kind of money on their defense budget as the U.S. as a drain on their growth.


If you are going to erroneously peg military spending to economic strength as though the former will stifle the latter (i.e. the US spends the most on the military in the world AND has the world's strongest economy), then I guess that China WON'T ascend to the economic zenith you are predicting as evidenced by this chart. Their military spending will stifle their economy if it continues at its current growth rate.

That's a big "if", considering that the U.S. defense spending goes into the TRILLIONS, my friend. You'd be amazed at how much can be done domestically if your country isn't spending a mint on its military.


US spending is in the BILLIONS on an annual basis, not TRILLIONS. If you are looking at multiple years, then many countries will eventually go into "TRILLIONS" as well.

Did you even bother looking at the chart on China's expansion of military spending? What do you mean that's a "big if"? Looks like the trend points more to "when" rather than "if." Regarless, you are needlessly conflating the two (military spending and economic strength) when military spending had nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:46 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Johnny Larue wrote:
US spending is in the BILLIONS on an annual basis, not TRILLIONS. If you are looking at multiple years, then many countries will eventually go into "TRILLIONS" as well.

Did you even bother looking at the chart on China's expansion of military spending? What do you mean that's a "big if"? Looks like the trend points more to "when" rather than "if." Regarless, you are needlessly conflating the two (military spending and economic strength) when military spending had nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

You're right, it was the national debt of the U.S. that goes into the trillions, but since military spending has contributed hugely to that deficit, my point is still fairly valid.

As for military spending, it has a lot to do with a country's economy, as any kind of spending does. The context I brought it up in this thread was that China doesn't have the kind of military spending that the U.S. does to hinder its economic growth. Sure, they've increased their spending on their military, but it's still not even close to what the U.S. has, and there is no guarantee that it will continue to grow exponentially, so the word "if" is still the correct one to use rather than "when".

Anytime a country goes to war, they are generally going to come out of it in a worse economic position, and so it was with the U.S. under the W Bush Administration after starting the War on Terror. Now, I'm no pot-smoking hippie, and I fully support the notion of subjecting terrorists to the "hollow-point-round-to-the-back-of-the-fucking-head" treatment. However, it'd be stupid to think that the economy wasn't going suffer for all of that warring.

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Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Ragnarok73 wrote:
Anytime a country goes to war, they are generally going to come out of it in a worse economic position, and so it was with the U.S. under the W Bush Administration after starting the War on Terror. Now, I'm no pot-smoking hippie, and I fully support the notion of subjecting terrorists to the "hollow-point-round-to-the-back-of-the-fucking-head" treatment. However, it'd be stupid to think that the economy wasn't going suffer for all of that warring.


It is tough to try and look at things like that in a vacuum. Recall that several months before the Gore/Bush contest that the tech bubble burst in 2000. During much of the 2000's we had the housing bubble building and building until IT collapsed in 2008. That had very little to do with military spending. As far as the early economic conditions of Bush's presidency, a chunk of that came about because of the attacks on US soil and the upheaval of the financial markets because of it, rather than the military response to it. Now, to be sure, the incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan did not help the bottom line for government deficit spending, but there were many years of economic growth in the mid-2000's even while those incursions were taking place.

As another example, though it is not a definitive view, it is accepted in many circles that WWII was the primary driver for the end of the Great Depression. And while our debt did indeed skyrocket during those years, in the aftermath the US enjoyed great economic prosperity in being one of the few heavy industrial countries not to have beeen decimated by the conflict. Now I'm no chicken-hawk "let's go and invade every country that looks cross-eyed at us" drum beater, but from an economic standpoint, it is better to be the bomber instead of the bomb target,...at least in the medium to short-term


Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:28 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Holy crap, there has been an avalanche of posts since the last time I looked at this thread.

I'll chop it up, scatter it like so many goat innards, and pick one random thing to react to.

Ah, yes. The Chinese economy.

I was reading a piece by Krugman recently in which he posited that the Chinese economic powerhouse may come crashing down much sooner than we tend to think. Something to do with putting all their focus on investment, rather than consumption, which is just asking for a bursting bubble, plus a declining surplus of incoming workers that will inevitably mean that Chinese companies won't be able to keep their workers with slavery-level pay.

EDIT:

And here's the link.

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Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
China is also going to have a pretty serious problem with an aged population soon; I'm sure everyone knows about their one-child policy, and how Chinese culture values male heirs over female offspring. Well, because of this, China now has more men than women, which means they're going to have more old people to care for, and fewer young people to care for them. That's going to shake up their economy for sure.

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Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:10 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Ken wrote:
Holy crap, there has been an avalanche of posts since the last time I looked at this thread.

I'll chop it up, scatter it like so many goat innards, and pick one random thing to react to.

Ah, yes. The Chinese economy.

I was reading a piece by Krugman recently in which he posited that the Chinese economic powerhouse may come crashing down much sooner than we tend to think. Something to do with putting all their focus on investment, rather than consumption, which is just asking for a bursting bubble, plus a declining surplus of incoming workers that will inevitably mean that Chinese companies won't be able to keep their workers with slavery-level pay.

EDIT:

And here's the link.



The way I understand it, is their relience on a stiffled currency for exports. Much the Chinese population is uneducated, poor, and therefore there is little in the way of internal markets. Without its artificially price-surpressed exports, the markets for its produce vanishes. 700 million peasants have little use and no money for I-phones.

This is a serious problem that only the kind of individual enlightenment not typically wedded to communist dictorships can resolve.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:53 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Johnny Larue wrote:
Unke wrote:
China has enjoyed a prolonged growth in wealth and power in the past two decades? (P.S.: It has nothing to do with the superiority of Chinese culture over European cultures.)


I think that using China as a bellweather of "growth of wealth and power" is a bit premature after only 2 decades (as you posit). A vast majority of people living in China do so at a standard of living level well below that of the average citizen in the West. The Chinese rise to "wealth and power" has been enabled by a confluence of an overabundance of low-wage workers and relaxed environmental and safety policies. While they are very good at churning out low cost products by the metric tonne, they are still nowhere near the West when it comes to innovation. In the context of this thread, I do not link that shortcoming to race but moreso to environment. Communism and state run economies will rarely, if ever, allow for as much individual expression and contribution (and by extension innovation) as would a society based on democratic principles and free market theory.


Oh dear, my little aside has derailed the threat. Any discussion of the Chinese economy is a red herring. I simply meant to refute NotHughGrant's statement that a growth in prosperity is conditional on Anglo-Saxon culture. Whichever way you look at it, China's power (military power, political influence) and wealth (GDP, GDP per capita) have significantly increased over the course of a generation (20 to 25 years) relative to the U.S. and Western European countries. (That doesn't mean its greater or equal to the prosperity of Western countries, it means that the development towards wealth has been more dynamic in China.) By NotHughGrant's abhorrent logic, this would mean that Chinese culture has been superior to "Anglo-Saxon culture" for a generation or that the last generation of Han Chinese is racially superior to "Anglo-Saxons". That is nonsense, of course, irrespective of the actual reasons for China's rise in wealth.


Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:41 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
I never mentioned racial superiority anywhere for the simple fact that I don't think there is any evidence for it. I mentioned that some cultures are more successful than others, regardless of race.

The Japanese for a long time had a more productive culture than the Europeans, for instance.

So, a hearty fuck you, you lying bastard!

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:48 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I never mentioned racial superiority anywhere for the simple fact that I don't think there is any evidence for it. I mentioned that some cultures are more successful than others, regardless of race.

The Japanese for a long time had a more productive culture than the Europeans, for instance.

So, a hearty fuck you, you lying bastard!

You must be Nick Griffin posting under a pseudonym. He loves to back-peddle too when caught out for a racist comment.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Jesus H ... grow the fuck up, kid!

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
Jesus H ... grow the fuck up, kid!

You're telling him to grow up? :? Now that's hilarious :lol:


Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
Jesus H ... grow the fuck up, kid!

Are you trying to somehow imply that there was something "complex" about your statement regarding Anglo-Saxons and industry? Or is this your only defense when you've been caught out as a racist? I gave you a chance to drop this issue, but you just had to keep going. Let Round Two commence.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
My statement is supported by a little thing called "data".

Kind of urinates on your parade really.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:28 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
My statement is supported by a little thing called "data".

Kind of urinates on your parade really.

You just can't admit you're wrong, eh?

I'm kinda expectorating on you right now, verbally. I'm going to continue until you smarten the fuck up.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
I'm enjoying this.

What part was I wrong about? Just so we're clear

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:01 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I'm enjoying this.

What part was I wrong about? Just so we're clear

Holy shit. Go back and read through the earlier posts in this thread, junior. You're starting to strike me as a person who is adept at self-deception.

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:03 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I'm enjoying this.

What part was I wrong about? Just so we're clear

You are such a troll that you don't even realize it.


Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:41 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Guys...general etiquette of forensics would say that you should point out specifically where NotHugh is full of it and then respond specifically to that point, rather than issuing blanket "you're full of it" statements and then tell HIM to go back and find your evidence for you. We have "quote" tags here for a reason, feel free to use them.


Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Johnny Larue wrote:
Guys...general etiquette of forensics would say that you should point out specifically where NotHugh is full of it and then respond specifically to that point, rather than issuing blanket "you're full of it" statements and then tell HIM to go back and find your evidence for you. We have "quote" tags here for a reason, feel free to use them.

General etiquette on a forum would also say that NotHugh would have read those previous posts and acknowledge them rather than continuing to stick his fingers in his ears and saying "Nuh-uh, I'm not wrong!". It would also say that someone shouldn't just jump in to defend someone when he is wrong unless one wants to share in the shame. I pointed out twice how his comment about Anglo-Saxons and industry was full of shit, so any further attempts by him to continue arguing that I haven't done so approaches the boundary of deliberate trolling.

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:56 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
I've read them. They don't invalidate anything i've said.

My point is simple - American production is built on a foundation of European culture. Significantly Anglo saxon. Significantly Jewish too. This is fact. If you dilute this base too quickly with less economically developed cultures, you will become poorer. This is simple stuff. What do you think would happen if you brought in 50 million illiterate people, theoretically speaking? Would it make Americans richer, no it would not. Per capita income would fall. Crime would rise. As would ghettoisation, and poverty, and misery.

If you don't see this, then you are quite mad.

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:08 pm
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