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PACIFIC RIM 
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Gaffer
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
slksc wrote:
moviefan_ek wrote:
While it's true there's "mayhem and destruction," I think for me (and my friends) at least, it's the style and panache and verve with which Guillermo Del Toro delivers it. I thought the key frames and angles and visuals were amazing!

I think the other major point you're bringing up with IMAX 3D is unfortunate and valid: James B even warned us about this in his review.


I admit I made a mistake by ignoring JB's advice and watching this in IMAX 3D. I thought seeing this on a bigger screen with high-impact audio would give this movie its best shot. I was wrong.

I won't argue that the action scenes were not well-crafted (at least what little I could see of them). Your analysis of the individual fight scenes is quite interesting, and not something I know anything about. So that's a good thing. But what really diminished my enthusiasm was the predictability of the plot. After the initial setup, the story seemed to be on autopilot, with one cliche after another. Guys may have been walking around in high-tech suits, but they could have just as easily worn red shirts with targets on their backs. :) Now, granted, this is a movie about giant robots and monsters, not exactly film noir. But while I don't expect any story originality from Bruckheimer, I did expect more from G Del T.


Yah, in the past, I used to think "IMAX = Great Viewing Experience," but over the years, I've learned my lesson, mainly with IMAX 3D. It's unfortunate. :| I would say if you ever get a chance to rent it on Blu-Ray (in 2D), it might make your experience a bit better.

Re: Story - Oh no doubt! :) I definitely agree that there's nothing super-unique or never-seen-before in the story, but I think for me, it can be forgiven when the action is done so well (in 2D), and all the little nods / tributes to certain iconic films / genres of yesteryear. But even if I didn't know about those, I just had fun. ;) I just kinda let things soak in, and found myself smiling or getting excited with all the battles and Giant Mecha vs. Giant Monster battles that we don't see that much (and done well). :mrgreen:

Would I have liked to see a more in-depth, complex story with more twists and turns? Sure, I love interesting plots that make me think, but in this case, knowing it was Guillermo Del Toro's tribute to the old Kaiju movies / Ultraman stuff he watched in his youth, I was fine with what he made, and had fun. :)


Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:30 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
Vexer wrote:
Personally I liked the Transformers better then this one, as the action in those films was easier for me to follow IMO as it wasn't constantly set in the dark like the action in PR was, not to say the action scenes in PR weren't impressive, they just didn't blow me way and I just didn't really see the film as "superior" to Transformers like most people did.


Hi Vexer,

I could see that. :) I actually liked Transformers 3 much better than 1 or 2. T1 just had too many zoomed-in, too-close action sequences, and it was really unpleasant (for me). It was too distracting and annoying. By T3, I felt Bay actually got comfortable enough to show the action sequences in a much wider context, making it more enjoyable.


Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:11 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
I gave Transformers 3 a rewatch and liked it a lot more at home and in good old 2D. It's a little more joyless than the first two, but that figures. What I like about the Transformers series is that its appeal lays not merely in the destruction and spectacle, but in the attitude Bay imparts everything with. He has a specific vision of human behavior where people never stop boasting about themselves to the point of self-parody. You can almost see the autobots as the human characters' fantasy-image of themselves. The fantasy of simple heroism.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:06 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
Vexer wrote:
Personally I liked the Transformers better then this one, as the action in those films was easier for me to follow IMO as it wasn't constantly set in the dark like the action in PR was, not to say the action scenes in PR weren't impressive, they just didn't blow me way and I just didn't really see the film as "superior" to Transformers like most people did.


I will say for myself that it was a vastly more enjoyable experience than watching the joyless Transformers which Shia Lebeouf and Micheal Bay apologized for as being bad work on one installment. With Pacific Rim I was on the edge of my seat with all the creative fight sequences and the real affection the director has for this genre much like last year's John Carter. There is real humanity and heart in the movie where there is none in Transformers. Then you add how Michael Bay treats women as a piece of meat in his movies while Del Toro makes his female character strong and noble. Del Toro put his heart and soul into the movie and Mr Bay just cranks out one soulless and cynical exercise after another. The unfair part is Bay is rewarded by big BO for his terrible work and Del Toro doesn't for a better movie.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:45 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
oakenshield32 wrote:
I will say for myself that it was a vastly more enjoyable experience than watching the joyless Transformers which Shia Lebeouf and Micheal Bay apologized for as being bad work on one installment. With Pacific Rim I was on the edge of my seat with all the creative fight sequences and the real affection the director has for this genre much like last year's John Carter. There is real humanity and heart in the movie where there is none in Transformers. Then you add how Michael Bay treats women as a piece of meat in his movies while Del Toro makes his female character strong and noble. Del Toro put his heart and soul into the movie and Mr Bay just cranks out one soulless and cynical exercise after another. The unfair part is Bay is rewarded by big BO for his terrible work and Del Toro doesn't for a better movie.


Nowadays, box office has little to do with how good the movie is. The only way you make big bucks is to have a movie based on something fans are already attached to (superheroes, Harry Potter, Twilight, Transformers, Fast/Furious etc.). People are sheep; they want only what's safe, comfortable, and pre-packaged. Since Pacific Rim is an original property with no big-name actors, it's a gamble, even in spite of the cool-looking robot vs monster fight scenes.

And yes, there are exceptions to this rule. An original property like Avatar can strike gold and an adaptation like The Lone Ranger can bomb, but those are exceptions.

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Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:19 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
KWRoss wrote:
oakenshield32 wrote:
I will say for myself that it was a vastly more enjoyable experience than watching the joyless Transformers which Shia Lebeouf and Micheal Bay apologized for as being bad work on one installment. With Pacific Rim I was on the edge of my seat with all the creative fight sequences and the real affection the director has for this genre much like last year's John Carter. There is real humanity and heart in the movie where there is none in Transformers. Then you add how Michael Bay treats women as a piece of meat in his movies while Del Toro makes his female character strong and noble. Del Toro put his heart and soul into the movie and Mr Bay just cranks out one soulless and cynical exercise after another. The unfair part is Bay is rewarded by big BO for his terrible work and Del Toro doesn't for a better movie.


Nowadays, box office has little to do with how good the movie is. The only way you make big bucks is to have a movie based on something fans are already attached to (superheroes, Harry Potter, Twilight, Transformers, Fast/Furious etc.). People are sheep; they want only what's safe, comfortable, and pre-packaged. Since Pacific Rim is an original property with no big-name actors, it's a gamble, even in spite of the cool-looking robot vs monster fight scenes.

And yes, there are exceptions to this rule. An original property like Avatar can strike gold and an adaptation like The Lone Ranger can bomb, but those are exceptions.


Well said oakenshield32! :) And good point KWRoss.

It wasn't a horrible opening for Pacific Rim, and I still have hopes that strong word-of-mouth can keep this as a long-burner / sleeper hit through the summer. I'll be getting it on Blu-Ray for sure. :D


Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:32 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
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There is real humanity and heart in the movie


Humanity and heart are vague terms which mean very different things to different people. I know women who don't find Transformers to be sexist, and it's a little disingenuous for a man to use that as the crux of his argument against the movie. It's not up to us guys to decide whether something is sexist or not. And we already know from statistics that Pacific Rim isn't attracting a majority of women.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:52 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
MGamesCook wrote:
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There is real humanity and heart in the movie


Humanity and heart are vague terms which mean very different things to different people. I know women who don't find Transformers to be sexist, and it's a little disingenuous for a man to use that as the crux of his argument against the movie. It's not up to us guys to decide whether something is sexist or not. And we already know from statistics that Pacific Rim isn't attracting a majority of women.


That is a very silly statement. It is a valid point that Micheal Bay does to it to the point of being fetishistic of having the camera leer over Megan Fox's body like a voyeur. You would have to be a) legally blind not to notice it and b)film illiterate not to know that shots,takes,angles and camera work are well thought out and planned before hand with an audience reaction in mind and c)not read what everyone else is critiquing and d) not know Micheal Bay reputation as a repeat offender. Next the argument you'll make is that Jenna Jameson doesn't do porn because we can't decide on whether something is porn. It a real treat to see Del Toro not succumb to such doucheness and stay true to his vision.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:26 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
MGamesCook wrote:
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There is real humanity and heart in the movie


Humanity and heart are vague terms which mean very different things to different people. I know women who don't find Transformers to be sexist, and it's a little disingenuous for a man to use that as the crux of his argument against the movie. It's not up to us guys to decide whether something is sexist or not. And we already know from statistics that Pacific Rim isn't attracting a majority of women.

Agreed, if one were to argue that the films were bad because the characters were bland, the action unexciting, the story thin, etc, then that would be reasonable. But I think too many people casually throw around the word "sexist" and in this instance it seems like a weak argument.

Mikeala and Carly are both strong characters in their own right, the former is no damsel in distress, she's always calm under pressure moreso then Sam(the blowtorch scene in the 2nd film being a highlight) and while Carly does get kidnapped at one point, she's still pretty smart in that she is able to convince Megatron to take on Sentinel, which ends up being the turning point in the battle. If both characters contributed nothing to the film and were complete idiots or something like that, then I could understand somone calling it "sexist".

You're statement is the one that's truly silly, whether he's a "repeat offender" is just your opinoin, not a fact.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:27 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
I liked the first Transformers, but the first shot of Megan Fox certainly has a here-ogle-at-this sensibility to it, and that feel continues throughout the film. At least now he seemed to embrace the excesses to good use in Pain & Gain, which I'm waiting to come out for home viewing (although now I wish I hadn't read the excellent, very long true-story article of it first).

As for Pacific Rim, I'm a little burnt out and numb over explosions, no matter how very well executed they may be (which seem to be the case with this), and I only got little movie money left, so I think I'm saving it for The Conjuring (which comes out in Thailand next month). Really, the more I ponder it the more I feel Pacific Rim should have been a summer movie season opener; the feel of it is appropriate and the placement would have hurt it in box office less.


Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:34 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
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That is a very silly statement. It is a valid point that Micheal Bay does to it to the point of being fetishistic of having the camera leer over Megan Fox's body like a voyeur. You would have to be a) legally blind not to notice it and b)film illiterate not to know that shots,takes,angles and camera work are well thought out and planned before hand with an audience reaction in mind and c)not read what everyone else is critiquing and d) not know Micheal Bay reputation as a repeat offender. Next the argument you'll make is that Jenna Jameson doesn't do porn because we can't decide on whether something is porn. It a real treat to see Del Toro not succumb to such doucheness and stay true to his vision.


Your opinion only works if you assume that all women are offended by Bay, and I can tell you I know several who are not. I can also say I know one woman who is put off by the nerdy appeal of Pacific Rim and refuses to watch it. I also know a woman who forced me to shut off From Russia with Love because she was offended by the gypsy camp scene. I conceded to her, admitting that it was pretty sexist, reflecting both the norms of its time and the extreme misogyny of Ian Fleming.

Some people think the "girl power" of Scarlet Johansen in Avengers was noble, but the truth is, not all women identify with that. It implies that strong women have to be masculine women, which is another form of sexism. Not much different from saying you need to be like John Wayne to be a "real man." You know, men are objectified at the movies too. So are Nazis. Lots of things are objectified at the movies, the artform lends itself to objectification. It lends itself to fetishes too. You have to allow some of these sometimes uncomfortable things to come out or else it's not an art form.

Ian Fleming was a racist, anti-semitic, misogynistic jerk. I don't even have to read stories about him beating his wife to know that, I can just know it from a couple pages of one of his books. But he was a good writer too, and he's largely responsible for one of the biggest and best movie franchises of all time. His sensibility is bothersome, but I can live with that, and still enjoy his books.

There's something kinda fun about a prejudiced sensibility. If a director isn't afraid to be politically incorrect, that often indicates that he's expressing himself on all cylinders, not holding back. Historically, the most fascinating pieces of literature are often the ones that are most un-PC. That's what I go to the movies to see. It's like we're back in 1934, and political correctness is the new production code. Why's everyone so prudish all of a sudden?


Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:42 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
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Your opinion only works if you assume that all women are offended by Bay, and I can tell you I know several who are not. I can also say I know one woman who is put off by the nerdy appeal of Pacific Rim and refuses to watch it. I also know a woman who forced me to shut off From Russia with Love because she was offended by the gypsy camp scene. I conceded to her, admitting that it was pretty sexist, reflecting both the norms of its time and the extreme misogyny of Ian Fleming.


It is kind of irrelevant as you can find a handful of people who will believe or agree to anything like the earth is flat or Elvis is alive. I know women who find objectification in everything including tv shows,movies,video games,lad magazines and every other kind of media which they believe promotes a culture of violence against women. Heck I just read a review of the Conjuring which the male author calls it the most right wing woman hating movie of the summer.

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/18/the_conjuring_right_wing_woman_hating_and_really_scary/


I usually would not got that far to look for that kind of subtext offense but Mr Bay is soooo obvious about pandering to horny adolescents males fantasies it becomes a combination of offensiveness and unintentional comedy. Just look at the controversy about the Alice Eve underwear shot in Star Trek where the writer and director apologized for going too far and it was a mistake. Why did they do that was it offensive in some way? Del Toro trumps both those directors by not showing his heroine in any revealing way and makes her a person who is capable and actually does something in the movie unlike most females in action movies. A very progressive and refreshing change in the genre.


Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:06 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
moviefan_ek wrote:
Re: Story - Oh no doubt! :) I definitely agree that there's nothing super-unique or never-seen-before in the story, but I think for me, it can be forgiven when the action is done so well (in 2D), and all the little nods / tributes to certain iconic films / genres of yesteryear. But even if I didn't know about those, I just had fun. ;) I just kinda let things soak in, and found myself smiling or getting excited with all the battles and Giant Mecha vs. Giant Monster battles that we don't see that much (and done well). :mrgreen:

Would I have liked to see a more in-depth, complex story with more twists and turns? Sure, I love interesting plots that make me think, but in this case, knowing it was Guillermo Del Toro's tribute to the old Kaiju movies / Ultraman stuff he watched in his youth, I was fine with what he made, and had fun. :)


FWIW, I think JB was pretty clear on this point in his review that the story was not "original" in any way...


Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:33 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
Fair enough. You do make valid points, but I stand by what I've already said, especially:

Quote:
There's something kinda fun about a prejudiced sensibility.


and

Quote:
Why's everyone so prudish all of a sudden?


Quote:
A very progressive and refreshing change


Maybe, but I prefer movies to be controversial, button-pushing, provocative, extremist, and sometimes politically incorrect. It tends to make them simultaneously more amusing and more emotionally jarring. Those are the movies that demand visceral responses. Thus the 9/11 connotations which bothered some people in Man of Steel is one of the main reasons why I liked it. Perhaps your observation would be more striking if this were the 1970s, but that was a long time ago and we've already seen strong female characters in the Alien and Terminator series 30 years ago, not to mention countless others, so Del Toro isn't doing anything new. Besides, what about the five Resident Evil movies, which are driven by a strong female heroine?


Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:47 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
MGamesCook wrote:
Fair enough. You do make valid points, but I stand by what I've already said, especially:

Quote:
There's something kinda fun about a prejudiced sensibility.


and

Quote:
Why's everyone so prudish all of a sudden?


Quote:
A very progressive and refreshing change


Maybe, but I prefer movies to be controversial, button-pushing, provocative, extremist, and sometimes politically incorrect. It tends to make them simultaneously more amusing and more emotionally jarring. Those are the movies that demand visceral responses. Thus the 9/11 connotations which bothered some people in Man of Steel is one of the main reasons why I liked it. Perhaps your observation would be more striking if this were the 1970s, but that was a long time ago and we've already seen strong female characters in the Alien and Terminator series 30 years ago, not to mention countless others, so Del Toro isn't doing anything new. Besides, what about the five Resident Evil movies, which are driven by a strong female heroine?

Agreed, Reiko was OK but hardly a standout as far as female characters, there's still the painfully cliched scene where that one guy calls her bitch and of course the hero has to step in and defend her honor, for me it would've been more "progressive" if Reiko actually had a clever response to the guy and brushed off his comment like it was nothing.


Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:53 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
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Really, the more I ponder it the more I feel Pacific Rim should have been a summer movie season opener; the feel of it is appropriate and the placement would have hurt it in box office less.


I agree. Lots of big budget bombs in recent weeks, I think people are burned out by mass destruction. And early May & mid June(where Iron Man & Man of Steel were placed) were pretty dead in terms of new releases, would have been a better time for PR.

Now is the perfect time for low key fare(Conjuring etc)


Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:25 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
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Agreed, Reiko was OK but hardly a standout as far as female characters, there's still the painfully cliched scene where that one guy calls her bitch and of course the hero has to step in and defend her honor, for me it would've been more "progressive" if Reiko actually had a clever response to the guy and brushed off his comment like it was nothing.


You mean it is more progressive if the girl acts all bitchy and sarcastic. That is a little regressive and kind of ironically funny. How about the fight was between two men trying to be alpha dog and being big doofuses and the insult was only to provoke Humman not her who held herself in Japanese reserve. The scene was about the two guys fighting each other to see who was the biggest idiot and she wasn't really the point of where the scene was going. Still given her display of martial arts skills she probably could have taken him out if that was the point which it wasn't.


Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:27 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
oakenshield32 wrote:
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Agreed, Reiko was OK but hardly a standout as far as female characters, there's still the painfully cliched scene where that one guy calls her bitch and of course the hero has to step in and defend her honor, for me it would've been more "progressive" if Reiko actually had a clever response to the guy and brushed off his comment like it was nothing.


You mean it is more progressive if the girl acts all bitchy and sarcastic. That is a little regressive and kind of ironically funny. How about the fight was between two men trying to be alpha dog and being big doofuses and the insult was only to provoke Humman not her who held herself in Japanese reserve. The scene was about the two guys fighting each other to see who was the biggest idiot and she wasn't really the point of where the scene was going. Still given her display of martial arts skills she probably could have taken him out if that was the point which it wasn't.

That's a narrow minded asumption, a woman can counteract an insult without sounding "bitchy" or "sarcastic" :roll:


Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:33 pm
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
Any chance for a movie that's aesthetically progressive?


Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:54 am
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Post Re: PACIFIC RIM
MGamesCook wrote:
Any chance for a movie that's aesthetically progressive?


Hi MGamesCook,

Do you mean visually progressive? Or more in the vein of the traditional notion of the philosophical branch dealing with fine arts?

If visually, you mean something like TRON: Legacy? Or what was that one film that came out years ago that had this "water color / oversaturated" look dealing with the afterlife? I forgot...


Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:19 pm
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