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May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations" 
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Quote:
I might have misunderstood but Star Trek fandom surely isn't an American phenomenon. I am German and know many causal fans, some Trekkies, have once visited a monthly meeting of Star Trek nerds who would compare their starship models and come dressed in full regalia (including facial prosthetics) - I didn't go again, these guys took Star Trek as a religion - and there have been regular Star Trek conventions in Germany. All Trek-related TV series had decent ratings. I know that it is the same in Great Britain and I expect that it is the same elsewhere in Europe.


that's cool for your personal experience & all, but facts are facts. The box office of the movies outside the US has been incredibly subpar over the years relative to its performance in the US(& especially surprising with the '09 reboot. Paramount has admitted the hyped up action in this new installment was specifically designed in order to appeal more to international audiences. see link below)

do you know if all the past Star Trek movies even released in Germany? not according to this article.

Quote:
Since "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" launched the film franchise back in 1979, the 11 movies in the series have taken in more than $1.8 billion, but just $312 million from abroad. Indeed, the franchise's appeal and cast of characters was seen as so U.S.-centric, that Paramount didn't bother to release several of the earlier films abroad.

The 2009 "Star Trek" easily became the franchise's biggest box office hit by taking in $387 million worldwide, but didn't make much of a dent in the overseas market with just $128 million. That's not terrible, but it meant foreign accounted for less than a third of the total grosses. That won't cut it in today's box office world, where pricey tent poles often double their domestic hauls overseas.


http://movies.yahoo.com/news/star-trek- ... 31663.html


Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
James Berardinelli wrote:
Unke wrote:
I might have misunderstood but Star Trek fandom surely isn't an American phenomenon. I am German and know many causal fans, some Trekkies, have once visited a monthly meeting of Star Trek nerds who would compare their starship models and come dressed in full regalia (including facial prosthetics) - I didn't go again, these guys took Star Trek as a religion - and there have been regular Star Trek conventions in Germany. All Trek-related TV series had decent ratings. I know that it is the same in Great Britain and I expect that it is the same elsewhere in Europe.


STAR TREK is fairly popular in most English-speaking countries and Germany. Not so popular in non-English speaking countries (outside of Germany).

Non-U.S. fandom didn't pick up speed until the '70s. The show was first shown outside of the United States once it went into syndication and was erratically distributed.

Although there are pockets of devoted fans all around the world, STAR TREK has largely been viewed as a North American "thing." Looking at the movie grosses, most of them have done well in the U.S. and abysmally elsewhere. STAR TREK 2009 made about $260M in the U.S. and about half that across the rest of the world, so there is a strong U.S. bias. One of the things Paramount is attempting to change with STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS is to give the film a stronger worldwide appeal. The fear is that this means "dumbing down" the entire STAR TREK concept and transforming it into a generic space-based action series.


I'm curious about how this compares to other major film franchises of roughly the size and scope of Star Trek, such as Star Wars and the James Bond franchise. I would expect that the Bond films tend to do very well internationally given the nature of the show.


Tue May 14, 2013 1:25 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
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I'm curious about how this compares to other major film franchises of roughly the size and scope of Star Trek, such as Star Wars and the James Bond franchise. I would expect that the Bond films tend to do very well internationally given the nature of the show.


of course Bond always did great internationally. Sometimes better than US(which was unusual with many 70s/80s event movies) The Dalton Bonds were basically duds in US, but int'l BO salvaged them

foreign box office used to be way behind US box office overall (original Star Wars trilogy did way better in US) its a market that has only recently become huge(think Titanic or perhaps Jurassic Park were the 1st blockbusters to have monster numbers abroad)

many big markets today were virtually non existent not too long ago(Iron Man 3 is making 100 mill in China? wow. 10 years ago the market there was basically non existent)


Tue May 14, 2013 7:35 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
James Berardinelli wrote:
Unke wrote:
I might have misunderstood but Star Trek fandom surely isn't an American phenomenon. I am German and know many causal fans, some Trekkies, have once visited a monthly meeting of Star Trek nerds who would compare their starship models and come dressed in full regalia (including facial prosthetics) - I didn't go again, these guys took Star Trek as a religion - and there have been regular Star Trek conventions in Germany. All Trek-related TV series had decent ratings. I know that it is the same in Great Britain and I expect that it is the same elsewhere in Europe.


STAR TREK is fairly popular in most English-speaking countries and Germany. Not so popular in non-English speaking countries (outside of Germany).

Non-U.S. fandom didn't pick up speed until the '70s. The show was first shown outside of the United States once it went into syndication and was erratically distributed.

Although there are pockets of devoted fans all around the world, STAR TREK has largely been viewed as a North American "thing." Looking at the movie grosses, most of them have done well in the U.S. and abysmally elsewhere. STAR TREK 2009 made about $260M in the U.S. and about half that across the rest of the world, so there is a strong U.S. bias. One of the things Paramount is attempting to change with STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS is to give the film a stronger worldwide appeal. The fear is that this means "dumbing down" the entire STAR TREK concept and transforming it into a generic space-based action series.


Thanks for the response. I am quite surprised that Star Trek hasn't been popular outside of the regions, which you have mentioned, because it has (or used to have) an underlying philosophy, which should appeal to people of all nationalities and ethnicities. I can only speculate on the reasons of Star Trek's relative lack of success outside of English-speaking countries and Germany. Perhaps it is the result of a language barrier, which doesn't exist in Germany because all foreign-language movies and TV shows are dubbed into German.


Wed May 15, 2013 5:14 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
calvero wrote:
Quote:
I might have misunderstood but Star Trek fandom surely isn't an American phenomenon. I am German and know many causal fans, some Trekkies, have once visited a monthly meeting of Star Trek nerds who would compare their starship models and come dressed in full regalia (including facial prosthetics) - I didn't go again, these guys took Star Trek as a religion - and there have been regular Star Trek conventions in Germany. All Trek-related TV series had decent ratings. I know that it is the same in Great Britain and I expect that it is the same elsewhere in Europe.


that's cool for your personal experience & all, but facts are facts. The box office of the movies outside the US has been incredibly subpar over the years relative to its performance in the US(& especially surprising with the '09 reboot. Paramount has admitted the hyped up action in this new installment was specifically designed in order to appeal more to international audiences. see link below)

do you know if all the past Star Trek movies even released in Germany? not according to this article.

Quote:
Since "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" launched the film franchise back in 1979, the 11 movies in the series have taken in more than $1.8 billion, but just $312 million from abroad. Indeed, the franchise's appeal and cast of characters was seen as so U.S.-centric, that Paramount didn't bother to release several of the earlier films abroad.

The 2009 "Star Trek" easily became the franchise's biggest box office hit by taking in $387 million worldwide, but didn't make much of a dent in the overseas market with just $128 million. That's not terrible, but it meant foreign accounted for less than a third of the total grosses. That won't cut it in today's box office world, where pricey tent poles often double their domestic hauls overseas.


http://movies.yahoo.com/news/star-trek- ... 31663.html


I'm not disputing the facts and didn't mean to suggest that the Star Trek movies - all of which were released cinematically in Germany - were equally successful outside of the U.S. I still consider Star Trek primarily as a TV format and the TV series - all of which have been shown (repeatedly) on Geman TV had at least decent ratings (although I can't provide the numbers) and Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock are iconic characters in Germany as well. To back this latter statement up with a fun fact: Do you know the early 80ies pop song "99 Luftballons" by Nena? It is the only German-language No. 1 (or 2) in the U.S. billboard charts and has been featured in movies such as 'Boogie Nights' or 'Watchmen'. The German-language version contains the lines: "99 Düsenflieger/jeder war ein großer Krieger/hielten sich für Captain Kirk/ es gab ein großes Feuerwerk" ("99 jet fighter pilots/ each one a great warrior/ thought they were Captain Kirk/ there were huge fireworks")


Wed May 15, 2013 5:27 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Unke wrote:
calvero wrote:
Quote:
I might have misunderstood but Star Trek fandom surely isn't an American phenomenon. I am German and know many causal fans, some Trekkies, have once visited a monthly meeting of Star Trek nerds who would compare their starship models and come dressed in full regalia (including facial prosthetics) - I didn't go again, these guys took Star Trek as a religion - and there have been regular Star Trek conventions in Germany. All Trek-related TV series had decent ratings. I know that it is the same in Great Britain and I expect that it is the same elsewhere in Europe.


that's cool for your personal experience & all, but facts are facts. The box office of the movies outside the US has been incredibly subpar over the years relative to its performance in the US(& especially surprising with the '09 reboot. Paramount has admitted the hyped up action in this new installment was specifically designed in order to appeal more to international audiences. see link below)

do you know if all the past Star Trek movies even released in Germany? not according to this article.

Quote:
Since "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" launched the film franchise back in 1979, the 11 movies in the series have taken in more than $1.8 billion, but just $312 million from abroad. Indeed, the franchise's appeal and cast of characters was seen as so U.S.-centric, that Paramount didn't bother to release several of the earlier films abroad.

The 2009 "Star Trek" easily became the franchise's biggest box office hit by taking in $387 million worldwide, but didn't make much of a dent in the overseas market with just $128 million. That's not terrible, but it meant foreign accounted for less than a third of the total grosses. That won't cut it in today's box office world, where pricey tent poles often double their domestic hauls overseas.


http://movies.yahoo.com/news/star-trek- ... 31663.html


I'm not disputing the facts and didn't mean to suggest that the Star Trek movies - all of which were released cinematically in Germany - were equally successful outside of the U.S. I still consider Star Trek primarily as a TV format and the TV series - all of which have been shown (repeatedly) on Geman TV had at least decent ratings (although I can't provide the numbers) and Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock are iconic characters in Germany as well. To back this latter statement up with a fun fact: Do you know the early 80ies pop song "99 Luftballons" by Nena? It is the only German-language No. 1 (or 2) in the U.S. billboard charts and has been featured in movies such as 'Boogie Nights' or 'Watchmen'. The German-language version contains the lines: "99 Düsenflieger/jeder war ein großer Krieger/hielten sich für Captain Kirk/ es gab ein großes Feuerwerk" ("99 jet fighter pilots/ each one a great warrior/ thought they were Captain Kirk/ there were huge fireworks")


I'm surprised that Star Trek is as popular in Germany as in English-speaking countries. I am curious as to whether science fiction in general is a popular genre in films and TV shows in Germany, because I have read elsewhere that this is not necessarily true for other European countries (e.g. I have read that science fiction is not at all popular in France and Spain, at least as far as TV is concerned).

I can say that in Japan, sci-fi is popular primarily in the anime (i.e. Japanese animation) genre but not particularly on TV, although American TV shows are commonly dubbed into Japanese (including Star Trek).


Wed May 15, 2013 8:28 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
StatGuy2000 wrote:
I'm surprised that Star Trek is as popular in Germany as in English-speaking countries. I am curious as to whether science fiction in general is a popular genre in films and TV shows in Germany, because I have read elsewhere that this is not necessarily true for other European countries (e.g. I have read that science fiction is not at all popular in France and Spain, at least as far as TV is concerned).

I can say that in Japan, sci-fi is popular primarily in the anime (i.e. Japanese animation) genre but not particularly on TV, although American TV shows are commonly dubbed into Japanese (including Star Trek).


I find it difficult to make a general statement on the popularity of science-fiction in non-English speaking countries, but my guess is that, in most Western countries, it will be similar to the U.S.

For instance, France has a long tradition of sci-fi comics (or bandes desinées, if you prefer) such as Valérian, agent spatio-temporel, Métal Hurlant or Jodorowsky's and Moebius's Incal-series. The latter has clearly influenced French sci-fi movie The Fifth Element to the extent that I cannot understand how Giraud and Jodorowski lost their plagiarism lawsuit.

There is a tradition of dystopian and science-fiction writing in Central and Eastern Europe. Samjatin's "We" is often mentioned with "Brave New World" and "1984". Polish author Stanislaw Lem is one of the most revered writers of hard sci-fi, such as "Solyaris", which, of course, has been adapted for the screen by Tarkovsky. Indeed, there are many Soviet (and Eastern block) science-fiction movies.

In Germany, there is a long-running and very successful series of pulp novels called Perry Rhodan, which has a dedicated following not unlike Star Trek and claims to be the most successful book series ever. There are a number of very successful fantasy and science-fiction writers such as Wolfgang Hohlbein or Frank Schätzing (who isn't a sci-fi writer per se, but has written at least two novels, whch fit the genre). Before the original Star Trek series, there has been a German sci-fi TV series called "Raumpatrouille Orion" (Space Patrol), which is fun to watch because it is so dated, but makes very inventive use of standard household appliances as futuristic props.

I suppose that there aren't many science-fiction and fantasy TV series in Europe for budgetary reasons. The language barrier between most European nations means that the market for any movie or TV production is primarily national, whereas an English-language production can be shown in the U.S. and Commonwealth countries without further need for and expense of translation and dubbing. Also, sci-fi films and TV series are usually quite expensive, because they often rely on special effects


Wed May 15, 2013 10:12 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Unke wrote:
StatGuy2000 wrote:
I'm surprised that Star Trek is as popular in Germany as in English-speaking countries. I am curious as to whether science fiction in general is a popular genre in films and TV shows in Germany, because I have read elsewhere that this is not necessarily true for other European countries (e.g. I have read that science fiction is not at all popular in France and Spain, at least as far as TV is concerned).

I can say that in Japan, sci-fi is popular primarily in the anime (i.e. Japanese animation) genre but not particularly on TV, although American TV shows are commonly dubbed into Japanese (including Star Trek).


I find it difficult to make a general statement on the popularity of science-fiction in non-English speaking countries, but my guess is that, in most Western countries, it will be similar to the U.S.


Germany is an outlier because, for whatever reason, STAR TREK has been as popular there as in the U.K. and Australia (although not as popular as in the U.S. and Canada). All eleven movies have been released in Germany, the only non-English speaking country for which that is true. STAR TREKs VII, VIII, IX, and X received limited overseas distribution or (in the case of IX and X) no distribution outside the English-speaking countries and Germany.

STAR TREK is *not* popular in France, Spain, or Japan. Those three countries in particular have been targeted by Paramount for improvement with STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS. There is also hope that this will make inroads into the Chinese and Russian markets. "Boldly going" in this case means getting people to see a STAR TREK movie who had no previous interest. Paramount has been pretty upfront that they want the overseas box office for INTO DARKNESS to match or exceed that of the domestic market. The "success" bar for this film has been set at $225M domestic/$450M worldwide. With a $90M+ opening weekend, the domestic total would be within reach. It's still unclear whether the overseas goal can be achieved. A lot depends on how it does in Japan and China.


Wed May 15, 2013 11:54 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Sorry, what was so stupid about the 2009 film? I dont recall anything resembling a deus ex moment.


Wed May 15, 2013 12:07 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Stupidity? In the Star Trek reboot? If Star Trek pre-reboot is Bruce Banner, the reboot is the Incredible Hulk. Less thinking, more Hulk smash.

Aside from that, if you want to get into Deus Ex Machina type stuff, the two biggest things I can think of are red matter and time travel. Their effects change constantly depending on what the movie needs them to do.

Anytime you hear a character make a reference to red matter, time travel, the timeline, etc., imagine that they're saying the word "plot" instead. Plot matter. Plot travel. The plotline. It's very illuminating.

Oh yeah, it was an astounding coincidence for Spock Prime to appear when he did and give Scotty the secret to using the transporters at warp speed, precisely when it became necessary. I won't complain about the paradox, though, since pretty much the same thing happened to cool effect in The Voyage Home.

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Wed May 15, 2013 2:14 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Ken wrote:
Stupidity? In the Star Trek reboot? If Star Trek pre-reboot is Bruce Banner, the reboot is the Incredible Hulk. Less thinking, more Hulk smash.


Ha! This made me laugh out loud. Thanks, Ken. :lol:

Fantastic article, James... interesting ideas with how you order the "groups" of Trek fans, at least I assume you came up with this yourself? It's the first I had heard of it. I don't know where to place myself here. My earliest memory of Star Trek is when my father took me to see Star Trek IV in the theater. Also the first "grown up movie" that I recall seeing. So it's pretty special in that regard, too. But at any rate, I loved it! I started watching Star Trek: Voyager when i was in high school, but try as I might, I just couldn't get into it. So count me out of the TNG Generation (although maybe that was my fault for jumping in at Voyager, which I hear is regarded widely as the weakest of TV entries). Recently I've been diving into some of the Star Trek movies that I was too young to see in the theaters and finding a whole new appreciation for them. I really enjoyed the 2009 movie despite its - to borrow from Ken - "Hulk smash" qualities. I suppose I would be considered a "late movie generation/rebooter hybrid?" Ha.

Oh, and Benedict Cumberbatch? Yes, please. :)


Last edited by Taleswapper on Thu May 16, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 15, 2013 5:38 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Dragonbeard wrote:
Sorry, what was so stupid about the 2009 film? I dont recall anything resembling a deus ex moment.


There are many problems.

1. The Romulans don't know that their sun was about to go supernova? Even 20th century astrophysics could do better than that. And why can the Federation detect the event beforehand from light-years away, and the Romulans don't have a clue about their own sun? Romulans may be villains, but they're not stupid.

2. It makes no sense that the Eric Bana character (sorry, forgot his name) would blame Old Spock for their sun going supernova. Guess the writers were desperate for a plot device.

3. Boy, the Vulcans sure do have a crappy planetary defense system if their best (and only) hope is a rag-tag group of Starfleet cadets.

4. A lot of problems on Delta Vega. First, the Romulans stranded Old Spock on Delta Vega so that he would witness the fate of Vulcan. That makes no sense because, from a normal planetary distance, Vulcan would just look like a moderately bright star. Not too dramatic. Second, Kirk and Old Spock end up on Delta Vega by coincidence within a couple of km of each other, and within walking distance of the Federation outpost. Even Spock would have a hard time calculating the odds against these two coincidences.

5. How exactly did the older version of Scott come up with the miraculous long-distance transporter system that operates over light-years? Don't remember seeing this technology in other Star Trek episodes or movies. By the time this deus-ex showed up on screen, I had basically checked out of this story completely.


Wed May 15, 2013 6:02 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Well Star Trek has always been silly and with its fair share of "coincidences". What's obvious is that it's fondly remember because we saw it young and we exempt it from a lot critical thinking.

As a Movie-Generation Trekkie I never thought another fantasy series would just crush Star Trek.

AGOT > BSG > DS9 >> ST-Reboot


Wed May 15, 2013 6:22 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
slksc wrote:
2. It makes no sense that the Eric Bana character (sorry, forgot his name)

I actually thought the scene where Nero introduces himself was one of the more charming and memorable moments of the movie. Bana's doing his best to enjoy himself in a role that should by all rights have been bigger.

tico285 wrote:
Well Star Trek has always been silly and with its fair share of "coincidences". What's obvious is that it's fondly remember because we saw it young and we exempt it from a lot critical thinking.
I came to Star Trek as an adult. The special effects can be generously described as implausible. The reason the show works is on the strength of the writing, which isn't airtight, but it's probably a hell of a lot better than it needed to be in the mid-1960s.

tico285 wrote:
As a Movie-Generation Trekkie I never thought another fantasy series would just crush Star Trek.

AGOT > BSG > DS9 >> ST-Reboot

AGOT?

I dig BSG. I marathoned my way through most of it a while back, but I haven't gotten around to finishing season 4 yet. I should knock that out one of these days.

If I had to pick a rightful successor to Star Trek, BSG delivers on a lot of the same ideas with the benefit of modern sophistication.

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Wed May 15, 2013 9:09 pm
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
tico285 wrote:
Well Star Trek has always been silly and with its fair share of "coincidences". What's obvious is that it's fondly remember because we saw it young and we exempt it from a lot critical thinking.

As a Movie-Generation Trekkie I never thought another fantasy series would just crush Star Trek.

AGOT > BSG > DS9 >> ST-Reboot


What about Babylon 5?

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Thu May 16, 2013 12:06 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Jeff Wilder wrote:
tico285 wrote:
Well Star Trek has always been silly and with its fair share of "coincidences". What's obvious is that it's fondly remember because we saw it young and we exempt it from a lot critical thinking.

As a Movie-Generation Trekkie I never thought another fantasy series would just crush Star Trek.

AGOT > BSG > DS9 >> ST-Reboot


What about Babylon 5?

How about Stargate?


Thu May 16, 2013 12:46 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Ken wrote:
tico285 wrote:
As a Movie-Generation Trekkie I never thought another fantasy series would just crush Star Trek.

AGOT > BSG > DS9 >> ST-Reboot

AGOT?

It occurs to me that while it is often not referred to as such, "Game of Thrones" is properly spelled with an A in front of it. Color me a crackhead.

I should look into it, if for no other reason because Peter Dinklage delivered one of the great overlooked performances of our time in The Station Agent... but hell, TV shows always give me trepidation these days. They take up so much time!

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Thu May 16, 2013 1:30 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
James Berardinelli wrote:
Unke wrote:
StatGuy2000 wrote:
I'm surprised that Star Trek is as popular in Germany as in English-speaking countries. I am curious as to whether science fiction in general is a popular genre in films and TV shows in Germany, because I have read elsewhere that this is not necessarily true for other European countries (e.g. I have read that science fiction is not at all popular in France and Spain, at least as far as TV is concerned).

I can say that in Japan, sci-fi is popular primarily in the anime (i.e. Japanese animation) genre but not particularly on TV, although American TV shows are commonly dubbed into Japanese (including Star Trek).


I find it difficult to make a general statement on the popularity of science-fiction in non-English speaking countries, but my guess is that, in most Western countries, it will be similar to the U.S.


Germany is an outlier because, for whatever reason, STAR TREK has been as popular there as in the U.K. and Australia (although not as popular as in the U.S. and Canada). All eleven movies have been released in Germany, the only non-English speaking country for which that is true. STAR TREKs VII, VIII, IX, and X received limited overseas distribution or (in the case of IX and X) no distribution outside the English-speaking countries and Germany.

STAR TREK is *not* popular in France, Spain, or Japan. Those three countries in particular have been targeted by Paramount for improvement with STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS. There is also hope that this will make inroads into the Chinese and Russian markets. "Boldly going" in this case means getting people to see a STAR TREK movie who had no previous interest. Paramount has been pretty upfront that they want the overseas box office for INTO DARKNESS to match or exceed that of the domestic market. The "success" bar for this film has been set at $225M domestic/$450M worldwide. With a $90M+ opening weekend, the domestic total would be within reach. It's still unclear whether the overseas goal can be achieved. A lot depends on how it does in Japan and China.


I was referring to science-fiction in general in the post, which you have quoted, rather than Star Trek specifically. That being said, I'm still surprised that Star Trek's popularity is limited to English and German speaking countries. Maybe the clue is in the lack of distribution of Star Treks 7 to 10 in certain territories. These are all Next Generation movies and perhaps the TV series hasn't been shown in, say, France or Spain?


Thu May 16, 2013 5:34 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Taleswapper wrote:
Fantastic article, James... interesting ideas with how you order the "groups" of Trek fans, at least I assume you came up with this yourself? It's the first I had heard of it.


Yes, these are my designations.


Thu May 16, 2013 9:15 am
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Post Re: May 13, 2013: "Star Trek Generations"
Ken wrote:
If I had to pick a rightful successor to Star Trek, BSG delivers on a lot of the same ideas with the benefit of modern sophistication.


Makes sense. BSG's showrunner, Ronald D. Moore, had penned several episodes of Star Trek (TNG, DS9, Voyager) over the years. I agree. Fantastic stuff, BSG!


Thu May 16, 2013 4:06 pm
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