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Franchise Decline 
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
For me it's Spiderman.

Spiderman (2002) was an excellent, exciting, family action film, with a great, creepy villain.


Spiderman 3 (2007) was a horrible, cinematic cluster-fuck that I found to be almost literally unwatchable.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:59 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
The Matrix 3 (2003)

It's clear that they tried hard to continue the literary legend with this film...to make something almost biblical.

But what is lost, or forgotten, here is the simple making of a good film. The diologue hovers between forgettable and terrible. The acting (from the supporting cast) is wooden. The story dies a million times throughout the film but tries desperately hard to appeal to "legend" to keep it inflated. And they really blew their load before getting their pants off showing Zion as early, and crapply, as they did.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:07 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Vexer wrote:
Also, never really liked any of the Omen films except for the remake.

Despite the fact that it's almost exactly like the original? :?


Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:27 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
H.I. McDonough wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also, never really liked any of the Omen films except for the remake.

Despite the fact that it's almost exactly like the original? :?

Well for the original it was the terrible acting that was an issue moreso then the storyline, and I felt the remake improved upon it in that aspect.

Also enjoyed Spiderman 3 and the Matrix sequels.


Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:28 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
NotHughGrant wrote:
The Matrix 3 (2003)

It's clear that they tried hard to continue the literary legend with this film...to make something almost biblical.

But what is lost, or forgotten, here is the simple making of a good film. The diologue hovers between forgettable and terrible. The acting (from the supporting cast) is wooden. The story dies a million times throughout the film but tries desperately hard to appeal to "legend" to keep it inflated. And they really blew their load before getting their pants off showing Zion as early, and crapply, as they did.


Oh man, this is my favorite one to disagree on. I love Revolutions. Revolutions kicks reloaded in the ass, and falls just short of The Matrix, because it lacks a lot of the intelligence that made the Matrix what it is. Someone make a really clear argument about why Revolutions is so bad, or better yet, just an argument about why Reloaded is better.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Vexer wrote:
H.I. McDonough wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Also, never really liked any of the Omen films except for the remake.

Despite the fact that it's almost exactly like the original? :?

Well for the original it was the terrible acting that was an issue moreso then the storyline, and I felt the remake improved upon it in that aspect.

Never seen 'terrible acting' applied to Gregory Peck before. :? And I'll take Lee Remick over the ever-bland Julia Stiles any day.

I'll also say the "Lethal Weapon" series seemed to be headed in the same direction that "Die Hard" now has. And those "Men in Black" sequels probably should've never been made. :|


Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:23 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Julia Stiles is an amazing actress, she was especially good in 10 Things I Hate About You. As for Peck, I like him in other films, but he was just way off in Omen. Remick was the least terrible of the original's cast, though that isn't really saying much.


Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:45 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Julia Stiles bores the crap out of me, always. I guess she was alright in 10 things I hate about you, but I'd have to be in the mood. And I'm never in the mood for her.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Gedmud wrote:
Julia Stiles bores the crap out of me, always. I guess she was alright in 10 things I hate about you, but I'd have to be in the mood. And I'm never in the mood for her.

That's pretty much how I feel about Hilary Swank, when I saw Million Dollar Baby I was like "she won for this?"


Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:03 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
H.I. McDonough wrote:
I'll also say the "Lethal Weapon" series seemed to be headed in the same direction that "Die Hard" now has.


There were signs of that with the fourth one. But I maintian that the Lethal Weapon series never truly jumped the shark. I give Gibson, Glover and Richard Donner credit for realizing this was the series likely direction and stopping with the fourth one. There's been talk of a re-boot, which may be the best choice if they truly have to continue,

As for The Omen I found the remake pointless when I saw it back in 2006. Re-watched the original not too long ago and found it to be pretty dated. In some ways, the Omen comes off as a lesser attempt to cash in on the success of The Exorcist.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:08 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Gedmud wrote:
Oh man, this is my favorite one to disagree on. I love Revolutions. Revolutions kicks reloaded in the ass, and falls just short of The Matrix, because it lacks a lot of the intelligence that made the Matrix what it is. Someone make a really clear argument about why Revolutions is so bad, or better yet, just an argument about why Reloaded is better.

Reloaded and Revolutions are both pretty crummy. I'd say if Reloaded has any advantage over Revolutions, it's that the action setpieces tend to be tighter and more stylish, while the ones in Revolutions tend to be more frantic, ungainly, and overstuffed. I would bet this is a consequence of them trying to save the biggest and most exciting stuff for the end, when it's really just the noisiest stuff.

We also spend more time in Revolutions with characters we don't really know, don't have as much of an incentive to care about, and--as far as I'm concerned--have little interest in with concern to their triumphs.

And for all its portentousness and large scale, the final battle between Neo and Smith doesn't hold a candle to their earlier scuffles. Aside from that big shockwave punch.

And that piano riff on the soundtrack. That was pretty cool.

Vexer wrote:
That's pretty much how I feel about Hilary Swank, when I saw Million Dollar Baby I was like "she won for this?"

Swank is a very credible actress, but it's disturbing that she's been typecast as the underdog who gets beaten to death.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:15 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Ken wrote:
Reloaded and Revolutions are both pretty crummy. I'd say if Reloaded has any advantage over Revolutions, it's that the action setpieces tend to be tighter and more stylish, while the ones in Revolutions tend to be more frantic, ungainly, and overstuffed. I would bet this is a consequence of them trying to save the biggest and most exciting stuff for the end, when it's really just the noisiest stuff.

We also spend more time in Revolutions with characters we don't really know, don't have as much of an incentive to care about, and--as far as I'm concerned--have little interest in with concern to their triumphs.

And for all its portentousness and large scale, the final battle between Neo and Smith doesn't hold a candle to their earlier scuffles. Aside from that big shockwave punch.

And that piano riff on the soundtrack. That was pretty cool.


I found Reloaded spent way too much time trying to show off all the flashy shit that was possible in the Matrix. Firstly, that got boring. Secondly, it didn't even look good. The effects were bad. I think that's what was so refreshing about Revolutions. So much time was spent in Zion. I also really liked the final showdown between Smith and Neo, but that's probably just because of that piano riff you mentioned. You win that one.


Ken wrote:
Swank is a very credible actress, but it's disturbing that she's been typecast as the underdog who gets beaten to death.


Hahahahaha, that's gold. Never thought of that.

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Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:22 pm
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Gedmud wrote:
Julia Stiles bores the crap out of me, always. I guess she was alright in 10 things I hate about you, but I'd have to be in the mood. And I'm never in the mood for her.

Julia Stiles is a bit of an anomaly to me: she's a pretty good actress with absolutely no screen presence. And what's worse, she seems just as lifeless off screen as she does on it. That deep, monotone voice of hers certainly doesn't help. :?

Jeff Wilder wrote:
As for The Omen I found the remake pointless when I saw it back in 2006. Re-watched the original not too long ago and found it to be pretty dated. In some ways, the Omen comes off as a lesser attempt to cash in on the success of The Exorcist.

Next to Gus Van Sant's "Psycho," the "Omen" remake is probably the most literal remake of all time (with the 1994 version of "The Getaway" likely rounding out the top 3). As far as the original goes, there are a lot of very good older movies that are rather undermined these days by their very of-the-moment (at that time, at least) production, and this is another one. And I'm sure there are many very good movies these days that will suffer the same fate in another 20-30 years. :| And speaking of "The Exorcist," there's another franchise that shouldn't have come to be.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:19 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Surprised no one brought up (or I missed it) the "Rocky" series.To me there were two great Rocky movies, the original and Rocky Balboa. The rest range from fairly good (II IIII) to inane (IV V).

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:46 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Jeff Wilder wrote:
Surprised no one brought up (or I missed it) the "Rocky" series.To me there were two great Rocky movies, the original and Rocky Balboa. The rest range from fairly good (II IIII) to inane (IV V).


I agree with you completely, but some people really like Rocky IV. I find II-V to have not a single worthy film in there.

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:00 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Ken wrote:
Gedmud wrote:
Oh man, this is my favorite one to disagree on. I love Revolutions. Revolutions kicks reloaded in the ass, and falls just short of The Matrix, because it lacks a lot of the intelligence that made the Matrix what it is. Someone make a really clear argument about why Revolutions is so bad, or better yet, just an argument about why Reloaded is better.

Reloaded and Revolutions are both pretty crummy. I'd say if Reloaded has any advantage over Revolutions, it's that the action setpieces tend to be tighter and more stylish, while the ones in Revolutions tend to be more frantic, ungainly, and overstuffed. I would bet this is a consequence of them trying to save the biggest and most exciting stuff for the end, when it's really just the noisiest stuff.

We also spend more time in Revolutions with characters we don't really know, don't have as much of an incentive to care about, and--as far as I'm concerned--have little interest in with concern to their triumphs.

And for all its portentousness and large scale, the final battle between Neo and Smith doesn't hold a candle to their earlier scuffles. Aside from that big shockwave punch.

And that piano riff on the soundtrack. That was pretty cool.

Vexer wrote:
That's pretty much how I feel about Hilary Swank, when I saw Million Dollar Baby I was like "she won for this?"

Swank is a very credible actress, but it's disturbing that she's been typecast as the underdog who gets beaten to death.

I actually liked Swank more in Next Karate Kid then any of her more famous films. Another actress that tends to bore me is Naomi Watts, her total lack of screen presence became very apparent in the King Kong remake.

I also enjoy the Rocky sequels 2-5, with part 4 being the best out of those.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:36 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Hadn't thought about them when I started the thread, and this is going way back, but the Universal Horror franchises of the 30s and 40s probably should be mentioned. Frankenstein and Dracula at least are still considered horror classics (granted that they're examples of a style of horror that's out of fashion now) but Universal eventually had the monsters cross over into each others' movies, and then ended up with them meeting Abbott and Costello. Though in fairness, I actually like the Abbott and Costello Meet... films, but as a fan of Abbott and Costello. As a fan of horror movies, no. Other franchises may have included far worse movies, and some franchises turned into unintentional self-parodies at some points (007, I'm looking at you here, but you're not alone), but the Universal Horror films ended up as intentional, explicit parodies of themselves. That's unusual.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:20 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Jeff Wilder wrote:
H.I. McDonough wrote:
I'll also say the "Lethal Weapon" series seemed to be headed in the same direction that "Die Hard" now has.


There were signs of that with the fourth one. But I maintian that the Lethal Weapon series never truly jumped the shark. I give Gibson, Glover and Richard Donner credit for realizing this was the series likely direction and stopping with the fourth one. There's been talk of a re-boot, which may be the best choice if they truly have to continue,

As for The Omen I found the remake pointless when I saw it back in 2006. Re-watched the original not too long ago and found it to be pretty dated. In some ways, the Omen comes off as a lesser attempt to cash in on the success of The Exorcist.

I'd be fine with a LW reboot, i've also heard that there's going to be a reboot of Ghostbusters.


Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:31 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Gedmud wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
The Matrix 3 (2003)

It's clear that they tried hard to continue the literary legend with this film...to make something almost biblical.

But what is lost, or forgotten, here is the simple making of a good film. The diologue hovers between forgettable and terrible. The acting (from the supporting cast) is wooden. The story dies a million times throughout the film but tries desperately hard to appeal to "legend" to keep it inflated. And they really blew their load before getting their pants off showing Zion as early, and crapply, as they did.


Oh man, this is my favorite one to disagree on. I love Revolutions. Revolutions kicks reloaded in the ass, and falls just short of The Matrix, because it lacks a lot of the intelligence that made the Matrix what it is. Someone make a really clear argument about why Revolutions is so bad, or better yet, just an argument about why Reloaded is better.



The rot had set in by the time Reloaded came along. But there was perhaps just enough of the positive legacy of the orginal in it to keep its head above water... just.... maybe!

Revolutions had none of the good things of 1, and all of the bad things of 2, multiplied!

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:52 am
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Post Re: Franchise Decline
Jeff Wilder wrote:
Surprised no one brought up (or I missed it) the "Rocky" series.To me there were two great Rocky movies, the original and Rocky Balboa. The rest range from fairly good (II IIII) to inane (IV V).



I agree with this.

The difference between 1 and 5 is abviously worthy of this thread. But the final installment rescued the legacy.
The funny thing about Rocky Balboa for me was that the best of the film was outside of the ring and not in it.

Say it quietly, but it's almost as though Stallone has learned a few things about acting over the years. His portrayal of the ageing, former champ, who nows earns his crust telling anecdotes in his middle-market restaurant was actually quite heartfelt and credible.

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Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:58 am
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