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Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase... 
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Bringing things back to reality (the likelihood of the general populace going toe-to-toe with the professional military is pretty slim), I don't think that people should be robbed of the right to defend themselves.

Vex: Enjoyed the Penn & Teller video. Don't agree on all of their stances, but that one was pretty good.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:31 am
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Johnny Larue wrote:
Bringing things back to reality (the likelihood of the general populace going toe-to-toe with the professional military is pretty slim), I don't think that people should be robbed of the right to defend themselves.


Which is fine. They can have shotguns. Those are ideal defense weapons.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:35 am
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Johnny Larue wrote:
Bringing things back to reality (the likelihood of the general populace going toe-to-toe with the professional military is pretty slim), I don't think that people should be robbed of the right to defend themselves.

Vex: Enjoyed the Penn & Teller video. Don't agree on all of their stances, but that one was pretty good.

Glad you liked it, I disagree with them on a few things as well, like the death penalty, which I support.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:39 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
JamesKunz wrote:
Johnny Larue wrote:
Bringing things back to reality (the likelihood of the general populace going toe-to-toe with the professional military is pretty slim), I don't think that people should be robbed of the right to defend themselves.


Which is fine. They can have shotguns. Those are ideal defense weapons.


Pretty sure it would cause a great deal of anxiety if I wandered into the local quickmart with a shotgun in my hands. I feel like I should be able to defend myself (at least in public areas) away from the house if I want to also.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:31 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
BrianB wrote:
While of course the reason for the war and the order to attack is a factor, I believe the soldiers would obey commands. The whole Army isn't going to refuse based on moral objection. That's not how they work. And when they do attack, there is very little that even the most well-armed civilians will be able to do to stop them. So, the "protection against the government" argument is pretty flimsy.


No one would know unless it happens. But I feel fairly confident that Sgt. Joe from Chicago, while laying waste to Private John's family in Los Angeles, will wonder a little bit about what Private John and his unit are doing to his family back in Chicago. Yes, a compound like the Branch Davidian's won't stand a chance against a military assault. But a war conducted against millions of armed citizens among the general population would basically mean that Sgt. Joe or Private John could not step out anywhere without fear of being shot. You think its scary heading out among the IEDs and snipers in Afghanistan or Iraq, just imagine what it would be like X 100. The only way the military could win a campaign like that would basically be to lay waste to everything that is not a military base, including their own families, friends, girl friends, etc. One thing to follow commands against a group of people you don't know, another to know that in doing so you are participating in the slaughter of everyone you know and love.


Last edited by CasualDad on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
CasualDad wrote:
You think its scary heading out among the IUDs and snipers in Afghanistan or Iraq, just imagine what it would be like X 100.


Please confirm that this was a typo and that you meant IEDs. :lol:

(BTW: I agree with your post and was going to write someting similar but didn't have the time to craft.)


Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Johnny Larue wrote:
CasualDad wrote:
You think its scary heading out among the IUDs and snipers in Afghanistan or Iraq, just imagine what it would be like X 100.


Please confirm that this was a typo and that you meant IEDs. :lol:

(BTW: I agree with your post and was going to write someting similar but didn't have the time to craft.)


:oops: Yes, Improvised Explosive Devices. IUDs aren't too scary I guess.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Regardless of where one falls on the gun control debate, I think that most of us can agree that there is a need to keep a short leash on guys like Alex Jones.

Alex Jones goes bananas on Piers Morgan

If I were a staunch supporter of the Second Amendment, I'd want Alex to never speak in public again. Thanks for making pro-gun advocates look like ignorant belligerent hicks, Jones.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Agreed, for all the gun crimes committed in the U.S., the home invasion rate is very low(18%)because of criminals fearing that a homeowner will be armed, whereas home invasions are much higher in the U.K.(53%) because criminals know for a fact that most homeowners will not be armed, so they have less reason to be afraid of breaking and entering into someone's home.

And yet, I'd rather suffer a home invasion than being a victim of a mass shooting spree. I'm sure that most of us here would share that preference. Breaking and entering isn't quite on the same level crime-wise as homicide.

That being said, I'm less interested in increasing gun control than I am in seeing the underlying issues fixed. Gun control is a medication rather than the cure. Find out what factors in our society create people like Adam Landa, and try to fix them: balancing social inequality, reduction in religiosity of this nation, putting more emphasis on empathy than on one's individual wants and rights when raising kids. Japan is a much less individualistic society than ours, and they have far less in the way of violent crime and random acts of mass violence than we do proportionally- I don't believe for a second that this is a coincidence. I'm not saying that we should go their route and put the vast majority of the emphasis on adherence to the group's needs in changing this society, but a good dose of that kind of thinking wouldn't hurt.


I would not. A home invasion is several orders of magnitude more likely to happen than a mass shooting. How do I know the intent of the home intruders? Maybe they just want to steal my tv; but then again, maybe they are sick fucks who want to rape and kill my family. I don't want to find out and will put someone down if they intrude in to my home. A mass shooting is such a low statistical event, it cannot be predicted. You have a better chance of getting struck by lighting (in fact one is twice as likely to get struck by lightning) than being involved in a mass shooting. Despite the despicable nature, what has happened to a few (a very very very very very slim few) should not be used to punish the civil liberties of an entire population (in any context).

I do, however, whole heartedly agree with you in that we should try to erode the underlying problem in society. Ultimately, a gun is just a tool. It will never ever pull its on trigger.

I'd be interested in seeing any stats you can find that prove that home invasions result in homicides even half the time never mind more than half.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Raf wrote:
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Raganrok wrote:

reduction in religiosity of this nation


What does that have to do with anything?

It has a lot to do with it, as it generally would mean an increase in the overall level of critical thinking displayed by the population of said nation. Take a look at nations like Japan that have lower rates of violent crimes proportionally than the U.S., specifically their percentage of the population that have been educated (eg: adult literacy rate). Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I highly doubt it.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:24 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
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Regardless of where one falls on the gun control debate, I think that most of us can agree that there is a need to keep a short leash on guys like Alex Jones.


I'm pretty sure the government keeps a close eye on his group, and if not, certainly on any groups that seem to speak in terms of overthrow. I'm also sure Piers is quite happy to get a conspiracy theorist to debate against to make his own extreme views seem rational by comparison.


Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:21 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
I don't pipe my voice up much on these subjects, but here goes...

I think it's interesting to get perspectives that aren't American on issues such as these. Fortunately, there are many European students where I go to school, and I interact with them frequently. In regards to Americans with right-wing views, it didn't take me long to learn that Europeans generally think you guys are nuts. Completely batshit insane. Especially when it comes to guns. I think that's worth mulling over.

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Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Ragnarok73 wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing any stats you can find that prove that home invasions result in homicides even half the time never mind more than half.


What does it matter? If somebody invades my home, they are going to get shot. What is the proper recourse in your mind? Somebody invades my home while I am there: I just say, "you guys take whatever you want...would you like a cup of coffee on your way out?" I am not going to sit around to see if I can figure out their intent. I cannot believe this is even a question...you would rather get robbed point blank, and possibly get murdered, possibly have your family murdered (unless you can read minds to know the intruders intent) than be allowed a gun for self defense. Forgive me if I'm inferring too much here, you may want to clarify a few things.

And even if home invasions result in homicides 1/100 of the time, that is STILL several orders of magnitude more than mass shootings, (which should have no bearing on any gun laws).

Anyway, here are some interesting stats pulled from fbi.gov regarding home invasions:

Property Crime Facts:
Home Invasion/Crime Facts and Figures
ó According to the FBI in the US: http://www.fbi.gov
o One property crime happens every 3 seconds.
o One burglary occurs every 10 seconds.
o One violent crime occurs every 20 seconds.
o One aggravated assault occurs every 35 seconds.
o One robbery occurs every 60 seconds, or 1 minute.
o One forcible rape occurs every 2 minutes.
o There were over 2 million burglaries in 2005.
o An increase in burglary offenses was the only property crime to
increase in 2005 compared with the prior year data.

Home Invasion Facts:
o According to a United States Department of Justice report: ß 38% of assaults & 60% of rapes occur during home
invasions.
ß 1 of every 5 homes will experience a break­in or home
invasion. That's over 2,000,000 homes!
o According to Statistics Canada, there has been an average of
289,200 home invasions annually over the last 5 years.
o Statistically, there are over 8,000 home invasions per day in
North America
o According to Statistics U.S.A., there was an average of 3,600,000
home invasions annually between 1994 and 2000.

Let's throw homicide out for a second. If you want to take the chance of getting assaulted, or your wife and kids getting assaulted or raped in their on home, that's your stupid ass prerogative. In college, our place (meaning my roommates and I) was broken into 3 times: twice at one location, one at the other. Now we weren't home when they broke in, but had we been, those low lifes would have been in for a rude awakening.

A home invasion is certainly something to worry about...mass shooting, not so much.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:25 am
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Quote:
I don't pipe my voice up much on these subjects, but here goes...

I think it's interesting to get perspectives that aren't American on issues such as these. Fortunately, there are many European students where I go to school, and I interact with them frequently. In regards to Americans with right-wing views, it didn't take me long to learn that Europeans generally think you guys are nuts. Completely batshit insane. Especially when it comes to guns. I think that's worth mulling over.


Of course it is always worth mulling over what others think. On the other hand, I've always found it interesting that people from a region of the world that has perhaps the richest history of war and invasions by outsiders would not want to have the right or ability to defend themselves against armed attackers. If nothing else, one of the distinct advantages that Americans had in helping out (or interfering if some have that viewpoint) during the conflicts in Europe during that last century is that a high percentage of our soldiers were familiar with, and proficient in the use of guns going in. If any people's should know that there are evil people in the world who are happy to lord over others, it should be the people of the European regions. Their philosophy must be to endure, whereas the traditional American philosophy is that freedom is worth fighting for.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:36 am
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
I think it's interesting to get perspectives that aren't American on issues such as these. Fortunately, there are many European students where I go to school, and I interact with them frequently. In regards to Americans with right-wing views, it didn't take me long to learn that Europeans generally think you guys are nuts. Completely batshit insane. Especially when it comes to guns. I think that's worth mulling over.


James Madison wrote:
Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
I have one other question. Why in the fuck Christ do some people feel the need to carry a gun on them everywhere they go? What purpose does this serve? For self-defense? Crime is not that bad in this country. I grew up in the Philadelphia, PA area, and I knew where to go so I wouldn't find trouble. I've never been the victim of a crime, and I've never gone looking for that kind of trouble. Which makes me wonder about those who carry guns all the time...are they secretly hoping they might get to use them?

I say this as someone who does own a gun, and has only carried it publicly once.

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Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
I have one other question. Why in the fuck Christ do some people feel the need to carry a gun on them everywhere they go? What purpose does this serve? For self-defense? Crime is not that bad in this country. I grew up in the Philadelphia, PA area, and I knew where to go so I wouldn't find trouble. I've never been the victim of a crime, and I've never gone looking for that kind of trouble. Which makes me wonder about those who carry guns all the time...are they secretly hoping they might get to use them?

I say this as someone who does own a gun, and has only carried it publicly once.

I agree that the majority of the time you probably won't need to carry a gun around, but some people believe "better safe then sorry" and don't want to take any chances, and if you live in or near a bad neighborhood, then carrying a piece probably isn't the worst idea. I personally don't see anything wrong with responsible civilians having concealed weapons.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:21 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing any stats you can find that prove that home invasions result in homicides even half the time never mind more than half.


What does it matter? If somebody invades my home, they are going to get shot. What is the proper recourse in your mind? Somebody invades my home while I am there: I just say, "you guys take whatever you want...would you like a cup of coffee on your way out?" I am not going to sit around to see if I can figure out their intent. I cannot believe this is even a question...you would rather get robbed point blank, and possibly get murdered, possibly have your family murdered (unless you can read minds to know the intruders intent) than be allowed a gun for self defense. Forgive me if I'm inferring too much here, you may want to clarify a few things.

Whatever happened to calling the police? I never said that one should passively accept a home invasion, but it really depends on what the intent of the invaders is. If it's to commit a violent crime of any type, then defense is justified IMO. But if they were breaking in just to steal some beer, then shooting them in the face is a bit extreme. Your scenarios about murders are fear-mongering of the same type that is used to justify having a ridiculously huge defense budget. It's ridiculous.

roastbeef_ajus wrote:
And even if home invasions result in homicides 1/100 of the time, that is STILL several orders of magnitude more than mass shootings, (which should have no bearing on any gun laws).

Anyway, here are some interesting stats pulled from fbi.gov regarding home invasions:

Let's throw homicide out for a second. If you want to take the chance of getting assaulted, or your wife and kids getting assaulted or raped in their on home, that's your stupid ass prerogative. In college, our place (meaning my roommates and I) was broken into 3 times: twice at one location, one at the other. Now we weren't home when they broke in, but had we been, those low lifes would have been in for a rude awakening.

A home invasion is certainly something to worry about...mass shooting, not so much.

I went to the FBI site but couldn't find any specific info on home invasions that lead to violent crimes. It seems that home invasions are themselves not categorized in their own group as a crime. Property crimes are not defined on the FBI site to include violence, as that is categorized under violent crimes (assault, rape, homicide, etc.). As such, I don't think you can provide any real data to back up your assertion that home invasion violence is some huge threat or that it even happens often enough to be tracked in its own category by law enforcement officials. The point is, if you want to have guns, you're going to have to come up with something better to justify keeping weapons like AR-15's, AWP's, .50 cal sniper rifles, etc. in your home.

Here's another way of looking at it: if allowing citizens to arm themselves with any type of firearm is supposed to act as a crime deterrent, then why does the U.S. still have higher crime rates across the board proportionally than other industrialized nations? While I can agree that increasing gun control may not be enough in itself, it can also be argued very easily that decreasing gun control certainly isn't the answer either.

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Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:40 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Vexer wrote:
I agree that the majority of the time you probably won't need to carry a gun around, but some people believe "better safe then sorry" and don't want to take any chances, and if you live in or near a bad neighborhood, then carrying a piece probably isn't the worst idea. I personally don't see anything wrong with responsible civilians having concealed weapons.

Those civilians have neighbors. Without making an explicit statement for or against guns for home or self defense, I will say that it is asking a lot of people that they simply trust that their gun owning neighbors are at the level of responsibility that you're talking about. I remember reading somewhere that more than half of gun owners keep their guns loaded, unlocked, and accessible in their homes, which I'd imagine is not quite what you have in mind.

We do have background checks to vet gun buyers, but those checks are (pardon the terminology) quite liberal.

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Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Politics: Gun Control, Obamacare, tax increase...
Ken wrote:
Vexer wrote:
I agree that the majority of the time you probably won't need to carry a gun around, but some people believe "better safe then sorry" and don't want to take any chances, and if you live in or near a bad neighborhood, then carrying a piece probably isn't the worst idea. I personally don't see anything wrong with responsible civilians having concealed weapons.

Those civilians have neighbors. Without making an explicit statement for or against guns for home or self defense, I will say that it is asking a lot of people that they simply trust that their gun owning neighbors are at the level of responsibility that you're talking about. I remember reading somewhere that more than half of gun owners keep their guns loaded, unlocked, and accessible in their homes, which I'd imagine is not quite what you have in mind.

We do have background checks to vet gun buyers, but those checks are (pardon the terminology) quite liberal.

Yeah that's not what i'd call "responsible", my dad keeps his guns in a safe and keeps the key well hidden, our closest neighbors are across the street, nobody really lives right next to us, so for some people neighbors aren't an issue, though i understand the concern.


Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 pm
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