Discussion of movies and ReelThoughts topics

It is currently Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:41 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
The terrible events in Aurora 
Author Message
Cinematographer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 533
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
After hearing about the horrific incident at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, I've got to put forth the oft-mentioned idea of stringent vetting for those in this fucking country that want to get their hands on a gun. This crazy motherfucker managed to get 3 of them under his mother's name, the same mother he went on to murder before heading to the school where he killed kindergarten children.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with this country? Why does the U.S. have so many more incidents like this than any other industrialized nation in the world?

_________________
"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain."


Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:14 pm
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm
Posts: 2157
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I've said this elsewhere, but I think it's important, so I'll say it here too.

I think a distinction must be made right out of the gate, because this is something we're going to be hearing a lot in the coming days. To "politicize" a tragedy is to use the tragedy as a pretext to advocate for a pet cause. It is not simply to ask what can be done to reduce the likelihood of similar tragedies in the future. I hope everybody keeps this distinction in mind anytime the cable news peanut gallery revs up.

There will be calls for increased security in our elementary schools--metal detectors, security guards, zero tolerance for suspicious behavior, and so on. These don't work. Such policies have gone under federal review after being implemented post-Columbine. The results are increased hostility toward weird kids and minority kids, with no discernible improvement in safety. And really, come on. How does a school develop better security measures in response to random acts of violence?

There will also be calls to ban guns altogether. I do not believe that disarming the American populace is a wise solution to infrequent and isolated crimes as this one. The vast majority of American gun owners do not commit mass shootings, or violent crimes of any sort for that matter. It therefore does not make sense to enact a sweeping, indiscriminate, incredibly powerful law that will mainly affect people who have done nothing to warrant it.

A ban on guns is often the first solution that people consider in the immediate aftermath of an act of gun violence. It should be the very last one, and not until other, less extreme options have been exhausted. And there are others, many of which have either been addressed either insufficiently or not at all.

We have laws on the books to regulate the purchase and ownership of firearms. Many of those laws are poorly/inconsistently enforced and some of them can be circumvented through loopholes. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold acquired their weapons through straw purchases (i.e. sending a friend to buy for them) at gun shows, which Colorado's background check laws at the time did not extend to. Colorado has since fixed this problem. This is just one case in which we had the legal power, but not the comprehensive enforcement, to impede access to firearms for people who shouldn't have had it.

Something that needs to be destigmatized and opened up for a very serious in-depth national dialogue right now is mental health. It is something that is not taken seriously enough in this country, never has been, but must be in the future. I'm not saying I know for a fact that mental health problems are a central issue in today's massacre, but they have been in so many others and it's the first thing that people scuttle off to the margins when they start to piece together their thoughts about it.

One way to address this is widely available, free mental health care for anybody who feels that they need it. It is not a luxury, not an option, but a necessity that people who are either suffering a mental illness or have family members who are have every resource they need to deal with their situation. This is quite literally a deadly serious issue. This is one area in which the passage of legislation would incontrovertibly do some good, not just in the prevention of future tragedies, but in the overall improvement of the quality of life of all American citizens.

I would also like to see some public advocacy directed toward families and friends of mentally ill people who may own firearms. In other words, if you know someone who owns a firearm and has been diagnosed with a disorder that impairs their cognitive or emotional functionality, it is your duty to either get the firearm out of that person's possession or to alert somebody who can. Many people are uncomfortable admitting when a loved one is mentally ill, but that unpleasantness and social stigma cannot take precedence over the safety risk posed by a firearm in the hands of someone whose behaviors and thought processes are dangerously unpredictable.

If MADD can completely reverse the public's perception of the threat posed by drunk driving and the necessity of public awareness in just a couple decades, then surely a similar program can be applied to firearms in the hands of the mentally ill--an even more imperative issue with much more at stake.

One more thing I'd like to say is that people should not despair about how society is going into shit or how the world is sick or whatever. Consider this: we all, every one of us, have a tremendous capacity for violence. We are all capable of enacting a massacre such as this. Yet, over 7 billion people go their whole lives without doing anything of the sort. It is a very small segment of our species that receives a disproportionately large amount of attention for doing horrible things, while the rest of us look on and try to live our lives in relative peace. Think on that.

_________________
The temptation is to like what you should like--not what you do like... another temptation is to come up with an interesting reason for liking it that may not actually be the reason you like it.


Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:46 pm
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3370
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Ragnarok73 wrote:
After hearing about the horrific incident at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, I've got to put forth the oft-mentioned idea of stringent vetting for those in this fucking country that want to get their hands on a gun. This crazy motherfucker managed to get 3 of them under his mother's name, the same mother he went on to murder before heading to the school where he killed kindergarten children.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with this country? Why does the U.S. have so many more incidents like this than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Simple, because we have more guns then people. Even if we got gun laws like in the U.K., it still wouldn't solve the problem of getting rid of all the guns, that said assault rifles should definitely be illegal, there's no practical reason for anyone other then a police officer or soldier to own one.


Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:20 pm
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm
Posts: 2157
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
We have something like 88 or 89 guns per 100 people, actually.

_________________
The temptation is to like what you should like--not what you do like... another temptation is to come up with an interesting reason for liking it that may not actually be the reason you like it.


Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:32 pm
Profile
Cinematographer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 533
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Ken wrote:
One more thing I'd like to say is that people should not despair about how society is going into shit or how the world is sick or whatever. Consider this: we all, every one of us, have a tremendous capacity for violence. We are all capable of enacting a massacre such as this. Yet, over 7 billion people go their whole lives without doing anything of the sort. It is a very small segment of our species that receives a disproportionately large amount of attention for doing horrible things, while the rest of us look on and try to live our lives in relative peace. Think on that.

I get your point and I agree: one has to take this incident and put it into perspective. However, one also cannot escape the fact that these incidents happen more often in the U.S. proportionately than in other industrialized nations.

Mental health is an issue that Americans have to put more focus on. Other factors, like pressures put on an individual in this society could be looked at as culprits. I mentioned mental health in my last post because the shooter's brother alluded to him as being afflicted by a "personality disorder". I guess I'd love to know the *underlying* causes of incidents like this, as they could be horrible symptoms of a much greater problem.

_________________
"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain."


Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:16 pm
Profile
Cinematographer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 533
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Vexer wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:
After hearing about the horrific incident at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, I've got to put forth the oft-mentioned idea of stringent vetting for those in this fucking country that want to get their hands on a gun. This crazy motherfucker managed to get 3 of them under his mother's name, the same mother he went on to murder before heading to the school where he killed kindergarten children.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with this country? Why does the U.S. have so many more incidents like this than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Simple, because we have more guns then people. Even if we got gun laws like in the U.K., it still wouldn't solve the problem of getting rid of all the guns, that said assault rifles should definitely be illegal, there's no practical reason for anyone other then a police officer or soldier to own one.

As long as the Second Amendment remains active within the Constitution, gun control will be a political quagmire in this country. The solution would be to redefine or remove that amendment altogether.

_________________
"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain."


Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:19 pm
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3370
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Ken wrote:
We have something like 88 or 89 guns per 100 people, actually.

Ah I was wondering what the statistic was, the presence so many guns actually does give us an advantage in some areas, like a drastically reduced rate of "hot" burglaries(13%) compared to the U.K.(45%)according to studies, people in the U.S. are less likely to be a victim of a home invasion due to criminals fearing the mere presence of a gun in the house, whereas in the U.K. criminals have little to fear due to the severe gun restrictions.

Removing or changing the second amendment won't necessarily make things any better, if anything it could have serious repurcussions and make things even worse, for example in Mexico, citizens are helpless against the drug cartels due to not being allowed to own weapons to defend themselves, and with all the guns we have, getting rid of or changing the second amendment would basically be giving criminals an open invitation to shoot people.

I think we're better off re-instating the ban on assault rifles and making backgrounds checks mandatory at gun shows and online weapons retailers, and also banning the sale of things like 100 round clips(nobody outside of military personel needs a clip that fires 100 rounds).


Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:30 pm
Profile
Second Unit Director

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 377
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I 100% support the 2nd amendment! It was put in place for anyone the right to bear arms and form a militia to prevent the governement from overstepping their boundaries....and I support that, unequivocally!

Vex, you say no need for assault rifles...what is your definition of an assault rifle? Most people's definition is an AR-15... Basically something that looks like a military rifle...except it's semi-automatic (not fully auto, but each trigger pull means a new shot and the gun recycling itself ...although anyone may obtain a fully auto with a class 3 license if the gun was made before 1986). Do you realize most of my family's hunting rifles/shotguns are not only semi-auto..but also waaaayyyy more powerful than an assault rifle? An AR-15 is a .223 caliber. My deer rifle is a semi .308 caliber. I have a semi 12 gauge that will hold 8 shells without a plug.

Also keep in mind that if one wanted to...one could go to a hardware store to acquire substances and make a device that could empty a school room.

My point is blaming guns is not the answer. I'm for making guns harder to get...having to pass gun safety courses, psyc exams, ect...but if someone wants to kill, one will figure it out,


Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:15 am
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm
Posts: 2157
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I assume Vexy is referring to assault weapons as defined by the federal ban that was active from 1994 to 2004. In the time since that ban expired, the number of people shot in mass killings has nearly tripled. I appreciate your effort to put things in perspective, but it's tough to look at this correlation and not infer that the availability of assault weapons has something to do with it.

_________________
The temptation is to like what you should like--not what you do like... another temptation is to come up with an interesting reason for liking it that may not actually be the reason you like it.


Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:26 am
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3370
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I 100% support the 2nd amendment! It was put in place for anyone the right to bear arms and form a militia to prevent the governement from overstepping their boundaries....and I support that, unequivocally!

Vex, you say no need for assault rifles...what is your definition of an assault rifle? Most people's definition is an AR-15... Basically something that looks like a military rifle...except it's semi-automatic (not fully auto, but each trigger pull means a new shot and the gun recycling itself ...although anyone may obtain a fully auto with a class 3 license if the gun was made before 1986). Do you realize most of my family's hunting rifles/shotguns are not only semi-auto..but also waaaayyyy more powerful than an assault rifle? An AR-15 is a .223 caliber. My deer rifle is a semi .308 caliber. I have a semi 12 gauge that will hold 8 shells without a plug.

Also keep in mind that if one wanted to...one could go to a hardware store to acquire substances and make a device that could empty a school room.

My point is blaming guns is not the answer. I'm for making guns harder to get...having to pass gun safety courses, psyc exams, ect...but if someone wants to kill, one will figure it out,
I'm not blaming guns at all, what i'm blaming is the lack of background checks for military-grade weapons that mass-murderers usually possess and the ability to buy such items online so easily. Re-instating the federal ban would make a big difference in the long run. Shotguns/hunting rifles may technically be more powerful, but they're less practical for mass-murders to use due to the range and taking much more time to reload then assault rifles.


Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:34 am
Profile
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:42 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Bangkok
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I'm one of those weird guys who love just to read books and watch movies, and rarely play games at all (except when I'm at friends' houses and bored), but even then I'm still infuriated at the attempts to blame the medias, game in this case, yet again for violence (Mass Effects I believe). Just shamelessly simplifying matters to evade the more diffcult issue such as the easy access of guns and the mental states of people these days.

The pictures accompanying my local news announcement, mostly of parents worried sick gathering near the school to get their kids, choked me up a bit. All heart go out to those lost children and adults.


Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:45 am
Profile
Second Unit Director
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:35 am
Posts: 423
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I 100% support the 2nd amendment! It was put in place for anyone the right to bear arms and form a militia to prevent the governement from overstepping their boundaries....and I support that, unequivocally!


Is this really an actual fear amongst Americans? I mean really? Can we just think about that statement in a practical sense?

I mean, it might have made some sort of practical sense when the government had similar weapons technology to its citizens. But the US Government has the most advanced military technology in the world! Good luck taking down that drone with your handgun buddy.

And what the hell do you regard as 'overstepping their boundaries'? Socializing healthcare?

Anyone who seriously believes that: A) The US is going to have armed militias to keep their government in check, and B) It's about to be anything other than a complete disaster, really needs to stop for a second and think, rather than spout out some tired old defence they've heard a thousand times but doesn't hold any water.

...also this whole thing could have been avoided if we'd just armed the kiddies...


Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Profile
Director
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:04 pm
Posts: 1666
Location: New Hampshire
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I have some modest proposals to deal with our gun problem. The most important is this: A total ban on the manufacture of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.

I think gun owners need to get one thing through their heads: Their pea shooters don't stand a chance against our military's weaponry. So paranoid gun nuts who hold out fantasies of overthrowing the government really need to direct their energies elsewhere.

_________________
Death is pretty final
I'm collecting vinyl
I'm gonna DJ at the end of the world.


Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:23 pm
Profile
Second Unit Director

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 377
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Awkward Beard Man wrote:
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I 100% support the 2nd amendment! It was put in place for anyone the right to bear arms and form a militia to prevent the governement from overstepping their boundaries....and I support that, unequivocally!


Is this really an actual fear amongst Americans? I mean really? Can we just think about that statement in a practical sense?

I mean, it might have made some sort of practical sense when the government had similar weapons technology to its citizens. But the US Government has the most advanced military technology in the world! Good luck taking down that drone with your handgun buddy.

And what the hell do you regard as 'overstepping their boundaries'? Socializing healthcare?

Anyone who seriously believes that: A) The US is going to have armed militias to keep their government in check, and B) It's about to be anything other than a complete disaster, really needs to stop for a second and think, rather than spout out some tired old defence they've heard a thousand times but doesn't hold any water.

...also this whole thing could have been avoided if we'd just armed the kiddies...



I refer to "overstepping of boundaries" as a government abusing its power to infringe on the rights of its citizens.

The point is, this tragedy could not have been avoided. If someone is hell bent on mass murder, one will find a way to carry it out. Google Bath School disaster in Michigan, 1927. A guy planned for over a year and used explosives to destroy part of a school, killing 38 elementary school children. If Lanza had wanted to, he could have built his own explosive device utilizing directions from the internet and common hardware store supplies.

Banning guns would simply punish law abiding citizens, while not doing anything to anyone who is already going to break the law.




.


Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:21 pm
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3370
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
I have some modest proposals to deal with our gun problem. The most important is this: A total ban on the manufacture of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.

I think gun owners need to get one thing through their heads: Their pea shooters don't stand a chance against our military's weaponry. So paranoid gun nuts who hold out fantasies of overthrowing the government really need to direct their energies elsewhere.

I agree, small clips would greatly minimze the damage done by even the most powerful automatic weapons.


Banning guns would simply punish law abiding citizens, while not doing anything to anyone who is already going to break the law.




.[/quote]
Nobody is saying we should ban guns altogether, my dad owns quite a few guns(mostly pistols and a few hunting rifles, but nothing automatic), but he's against the idea of people easily being able to get automatic weapons with no background checks whatsoever. Like SC said, limiting the clip size to 10 rounds would make a huge difference, and likewise re-instating the assault rifle ban would be a good start. The mother of the killer was actually a survivalist(those nutjobs who stockpile weapons for "the end of the world") and she actually taught him to shoot in spite of his fragile mental state, one of the weapons he used was a Bushmaster assault rifle, something your average citizen does NOT need to own for any reason, had the ban been re-insated, it migt not have stopped his rampage, but at least it might've minized the damage he caused.


Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:11 am
Profile
Second Unit Director
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:35 am
Posts: 423
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I refer to "overstepping of boundaries" as a government abusing its power to infringe on the rights of its citizens.

The point is, this tragedy could not have been avoided. If someone is hell bent on mass murder, one will find a way to carry it out. Google Bath School disaster in Michigan, 1927. A guy planned for over a year and used explosives to destroy part of a school, killing 38 elementary school children. If Lanza had wanted to, he could have built his own explosive device utilizing directions from the internet and common hardware store supplies.

Banning guns would simply punish law abiding citizens, while not doing anything to anyone who is already going to break the law.


It's also a fact that if it's a lot more difficult to do something, the probably of it happening is also significantly reduced. It's quite difficult to build an explosive device capable of mass murder. Sure the instructions are available on the internet, but a lot of the material required is often restricted or at least would trigger enough warning signs that the authorities could track down the individual before he could cause any destruction. Notice that these massacres are almost always committed with fire-arms?

And yeah, if someone wants to do something strongly enough, they'll find a way. But it should be a government's responsibility to make it as difficult for them as possible. Look at the 1996 Port Arthur massacre in Australia. As a result of this tragedy, the introduced National Firearms Agreement banned all semi-automatic rifles and all semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns, and created a tightly restrictive system of licensing and ownership controls. Between 1991 and 2001, the number of firearm-related deaths in Australia declined 47%. Additionally the number of guns stolen has fallen dramatically from an average 4,195 per year from 1994 to 2000 to 1,526 in 2006–2007. Further restrictions were also implemented after a man shot seven students (killing 2) at a Melbourne University in 2002, included a 10-round magazine capacity limit, a calibre limit of not more than .38 inches, a barrel length limit of not less than 4.72 inches for semi-automatic pistols and 3.94 inches for revolvers, and even stricter probation and attendance requirements for sporting target shooters..

There has yet to be a killing spree even close to the scale of Port Arthur since, and the number of fire-arm related crimes have declined, showing that the restrictions have resulted in a safer environment.

Does it mean that I've sacrificed some of my "freedom" in not having a fire-arm to protect my family? I suppose. But frankly I never want to have to use a fire-arm in self defense. I'd rather reduce the probability of ever being held at gun-point, reduce the probability of a mentally ill individual going on a murder rampage with a high powered assault rifle. People will still commit crimes, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be crime prevention measures.


Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:11 am
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:04 am
Posts: 2384
Location: Lancashire, England.
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
I have sympathy for the right to hold arms to protect your house. If someone breaks into someone's home in the middle of the night and gets their head blown off by the owner, then justice has been served in my opinion.

But I do feel grateful that (with the exceptions of a handful of criminals and farmers) guns just aren't part of UK life. I've never held a gun, seen a gun in person, out of all the people I've ever known only one has owned one, and that was because he was a farmer's son and they used to hunt when he was younger.

Problem is, I can't see the tide ever being reversed stateside. It simply won't happen. Earlier this year I watched a Columbine documentary and for the first time I saw the videos of them displaying their arsenals and practicing their use of automatic weapons in a field somewhere in the American countryside. It seemed like it was from another planet. I just can't grasp kids with guns outside of war-torn 3rd world states.

_________________
... because I'm a wild animal


Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:43 am
Profile
Second Unit Director

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 377
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
The 2nd amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It's the last 4 words that stand out to me. Shall not be infringed. This amendment is just as important as the rest of the bill of rights. When this amendment was written, I don't know if our forefathers ever envisioned the gun technology of today, but they believed in this ideal enough to make it a part of the most important document ever written for our country. I'm not saying guns shouldn't be heavily regulated, but I am saying they should not be banned, ever. A law abiding, upstanding member of society, after jumping through necessary hoops, should be able to obtain semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and hand-guns of any calibre or gauge. I would be fine with necessary hoops being detailed background checks, passing of safety courses, mental health checks, etc. I would be fine with this process taking an appropriate amount of time...weeks, even months.

BUT...I would not be fine with that right being taken away...ever.


Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:54 am
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:04 am
Posts: 2384
Location: Lancashire, England.
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
If only there was someway of ensuring the guns could only be operated on the owner's property.

This could please both sides.

_________________
... because I'm a wild animal


Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:17 am
Profile
Second Unit Director

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:45 pm
Posts: 388
Post Re: The terrible events in Aurora
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
The 2nd amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It's the last 4 words that stand out to me. Shall not be infringed. This amendment is just as important as the rest of the bill of rights. When this amendment was written, I don't know if our forefathers ever envisioned the gun technology of today, but they believed in this ideal enough to make it a part of the most important document ever written for our country. I'm not saying guns shouldn't be heavily regulated, but I am saying they should not be banned, ever. A law abiding, upstanding member of society, after jumping through necessary hoops, should be able to obtain semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and hand-guns of any calibre or gauge. I would be fine with necessary hoops being detailed background checks, passing of safety courses, mental health checks, etc. I would be fine with this process taking an appropriate amount of time...weeks, even months.

BUT...I would not be fine with that right being taken away...ever.


I know that I am from a different culture and have little insight into or understanding of Americans' gun fetishism. Still, please allow me one comment:

Don't you think it is in very bad taste, to say the least, to pre-emptively promote your views on gun ownership a mere four days after a nutter killed 20 children age 6 to 10 with an assault gun. Isn't that showing a shocking lack of empathy and, dare I say, decency? Aren't you ashamed?


Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:02 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.
Translated by Xaphos © 2007, 2008, 2009 phpBB.fr