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May 10, 2012: "Unplugged" 
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Post May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
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Thu May 10, 2012 10:51 am
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Gaffer

Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:35 pm
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Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
Related to this ReelThought is something I've been pondering for a while: more and more, cell phones, text messaging, social networks and so on are becoming important plot elements in movies and especially TV shows. You would think that when watching older movies, the lack of such technologies will at some point pull you out of the story, because a problem would easily solved with them. So far, that hasn't happened to me. But maybe it's already happening to younger people.

One thing that does annoy me from time to time is the ST:TNG syndrome, where the writers have to contort the story in implausible ways to make technology that would immediately solve the problem at hand unavailable. Then again, if I were a serial killer, I would probably also do my business in locations where there is no cell coverage.


Thu May 10, 2012 11:44 am
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Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
iljitsch wrote:
Related to this ReelThought is something I've been pondering for a while: more and more, cell phones, text messaging, social networks and so on are becoming important plot elements in movies and especially TV shows. You would think that when watching older movies, the lack of such technologies will at some point pull you out of the story, because a problem would easily solved with them. So far, that hasn't happened to me. But maybe it's already happening to younger people.


This is very true. Think about Home Alone, or An American Tale, or virtually any film involving people being accidentally separated...so much of that would be moot with Facebook/cell phones. You can surf and find some funny blog posts pointing out more films that fall under this principle.

As for me, I enjoy Facebook to a degree, although there are days I consider parting ways with it. One reason I stick with it is that my job involves young people, and Facebook (when handled properly) allows for easy and appropriate communication. For better or worse, most young people view Facebook as a less-formal way of interacting online, and so short messages get the job done better than e-mail, in my mind (I don't interact with teens via texting...Facebook allows a barrier if I desire it that doesn't make them feel ignored in the way texting might).

Along similar lines, Facebook is a great way to "meet" people. Now, I'm not one to surf the web with that intention, but I've met at least three people here on Reelviews who I interact with consistently on Facebook. Yes, we could start an e-mail chain, but quite often we'll discuss events as they go on: basketball games, TV shows, etc... and Facebook makes that very easy to do.

I do think Facebook might be destroying the world, yes, and I certainly don't think it's used purposefully by many people. But I do think such a thing is possible.


Thu May 10, 2012 12:25 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
Call me a grumpy old man but I do find myself frequently longing for the simpler times of the 1980s. Truly the last decade where a kid could be a real kid. Playing outside until nightfall, bike riding everywhere (no helmets!), real arcades (in the mall!), not this fancy playstation crap. And isolation was a good thing if you asked me. We're way too connected now. The freakin middle school kids today are on their cell phones at the bus stop in my neighborhood. Come on. They're all playing their game consoles or on their cell phones or surfing god knows what on the internet. Stuff that took us years to figure out, all on full display on the internet. Where's the mystery and innocence anymore? Hmph... kids today.


Thu May 10, 2012 12:36 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
My family was always a few steps behind when it came to technology, but I never complained, partly because I wasn't big on change for awhile, we didn't get a DVD player until 2002, we didn't get any kind of internet until 1999, I didn't get a cellphone until 2009(and it's not a smartphone, I have no desire whatsoever to own one) I don't own a Kindle and have no plans to own one at any point, I mostly prefer reading actual books, though I do sometimes read Ebooks. Our family lives in a remote area, so we don't even get basic cable, and we stilll have landlines, so in case we get a power outage, we do have some form of communication.

I didn't get a Facebook page until late last year, though I rarely use it for poasting status updates and mostly use it as a means to log onto others sites to leave comments and things like that. I don't think I could live without the internet though, as I do a lot of web surfing and I can't imagine doing my school reports without being able to look up research.

I still regularly use Email, but I don't do texting, it takes too damn long for me to type out and send texts.

As for films being implausible do to the rise of technology, here's a list:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyMarchesOn


Thu May 10, 2012 12:47 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
...Or a Jedi living in Middle-Earth!

(Sorry. The above sentence fragment contains way too much awesome to follow up. I'll start again.)

The modern vernacular has taught us to associate the word "cesspool" with disgusting things... probably for good reason. That said, I can see where JB is coming from. Constant contact with the world of information (not to mention each other) gets oppressive from time to time.

There's one simple sign of the change in paradigm that I can think of: the phone call. I haven't been alive long, but I can remember a time when trying to call someone and getting no answer was treated as a minor inconvenience. You'd just try again later. Nowadays, if people try to call you and you don't pick up, their reactions range from annoyed to genuinely angry, depending on how important the call is.

I do think we place too much faith in digital communication to manage our daily lives. While it's a valuable asset, it is the proverbial basket with all the eggs in it.

Our human obsession with categorization leads us to want to box everything in as conclusively "good" or "bad", but technology in general is a phenomenon that defies judgment. It's too inextricably tied to our development as a species, and there are too many interlocking pros and cons to evaluate it as such. Like drops of water in the palm of Jeff Goldblum's hand.


Thu May 10, 2012 4:02 pm
Gaffer

Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:35 pm
Posts: 27
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
Ken wrote:
I can remember a time when trying to call someone and getting no answer was treated as a minor inconvenience. You'd just try again later. Nowadays, if people try to call you and you don't pick up, their reactions range from annoyed to genuinely angry

I find it quite hard to reach certain people on the phone these days. It seems to me that back in the days where everyone had a landline this was easier, but how can that be true?

I think what's going on is that when you call someone's cell number you know the person is there at the other end, and is apparently ignoring you for some reason. While with a landline before we had caller ID, when people didn't pick up it was usually because they weren't there. Then on top of that, with a landline you can usually predict when someone is at home and thus reachable, while with a cell phone when you don't get the person, you have no clue about when to try again.


Thu May 10, 2012 4:41 pm
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Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
One annoying thing about social networking is all the picture posting of where you've been. Its like I cant just enjoy a little vacation anymore without feeling obligated to keep my cellphone/camera at all times so I can snap shots of everything and upload them. If I don't, its as if I'm being left behind or I just don't care enough. Argh.


Thu May 10, 2012 8:09 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
My use of Facebook is two fold: Keeping touch with certain people I've no otherway of doing so, and easily getting in touch with the ones I do. There's also the trolling thing but that's become tiresome lately!

The issue of employers checking out your Facebook page is easily remedied by just keeping certain things to yourself, or if you must share it then adjust your settings. When I started my current job back in October, I was required to sign a 'blogging policy'. I did so as a formality (you know, to get the job) but I've no intention of obeying it (I have too much common sense anyway so not an issue).

Funnily enough, I've heard of people losing their jobs because of what they've said on social networking sites. Why has nobody actually called said employers out on this? I can remember a time not too long ago when speaking your mind on your own time WASN'T gross misconduct...


Thu May 10, 2012 9:02 pm
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Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
I used to have some times besides the one related to sleeping unplugged before I got my smart phone but recently I decided that I do not need a watch as I can use my smart phone for that which means I carry it every where (before sometimes I used to leave my mobile phone in my room). I found the smart phone technology rather cool with GPS, games, MP3 player you can even listen a book besides and still be aware if some body email you. Did I mention before that I use it to buy movie tickets outside the Cinema so I do not have to queue up to buy the tickets lol.

I use Facebook but not Twitter. I think that Twitter put some pressure on you to be flashy and some times controversial to be interesting enough to gain followers and in my case I might Twit something that I might regret later. Anyway, I avoided Facebook for a year or two (after became popular) until a few close friends got me in to play on line games and since then too lazy to quit it HaHa

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Thu May 10, 2012 10:44 pm
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Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
I have a Facebook page, but I don't really use it to be honest. I think Twitter is useless unless you're a celebrity.


Fri May 11, 2012 4:31 am
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
Vexer wrote:
My family was always a few steps behind when it came to technology, but I never complained, partly because I wasn't big on change for awhile, we didn't get a DVD player until 2002, we didn't get any kind of internet until 1999, I didn't get a cellphone until 2009(and it's not a smartphone, I have no desire whatsoever to own one) I don't own a Kindle and have no plans to own one at any point, I mostly prefer reading actual books, though I do sometimes read Ebooks. Our family lives in a remote area, so we don't even get basic cable, and we stilll have landlines, so in case we get a power outage, we do have some form of communication.

I didn't get a Facebook page until late last year, though I rarely use it for poasting status updates and mostly use it as a means to log onto others sites to leave comments and things like that. I don't think I could live without the internet though, as I do a lot of web surfing and I can't imagine doing my school reports without being able to look up research.

I still regularly use Email, but I don't do texting, it takes too damn long for me to type out and send texts.

As for films being implausible do to the rise of technology, here's a list:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyMarchesOn


You have no desire to own a smart phone?...seriously? I couldn't live without my iPhone. I am constantly downloading music, streaming from spotify, playing time killer games, using it as a tether for my laptop, using countless apps that make my life easier such as mobile banking, and last but not least, checking my email. I have been walking to class only to get an email saying class was cancelled numerous times. The smart phone has been a lifesaver for me, and I was even an early adopter with the palm one treo! Guess what I'm typing on right now?


Fri May 11, 2012 8:25 am
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Vexer wrote:
My family was always a few steps behind when it came to technology, but I never complained, partly because I wasn't big on change for awhile, we didn't get a DVD player until 2002, we didn't get any kind of internet until 1999, I didn't get a cellphone until 2009(and it's not a smartphone, I have no desire whatsoever to own one) I don't own a Kindle and have no plans to own one at any point, I mostly prefer reading actual books, though I do sometimes read Ebooks. Our family lives in a remote area, so we don't even get basic cable, and we stilll have landlines, so in case we get a power outage, we do have some form of communication.

I didn't get a Facebook page until late last year, though I rarely use it for poasting status updates and mostly use it as a means to log onto others sites to leave comments and things like that. I don't think I could live without the internet though, as I do a lot of web surfing and I can't imagine doing my school reports without being able to look up research.

I still regularly use Email, but I don't do texting, it takes too damn long for me to type out and send texts.

As for films being implausible do to the rise of technology, here's a list:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyMarchesOn


You have no desire to own a smart phone?...seriously? I couldn't live without my iPhone. I am constantly downloading music, streaming from spotify, playing time killer games, using it as a tether for my laptop, using countless apps that make my life easier such as mobile banking, and last but not least, checking my email. I have been walking to class only to get an email saying class was cancelled numerous times. The smart phone has been a lifesaver for me, and I was even an early adopter with the palm one treo! Guess what I'm typing on right now?
Yeah, my sister has a smart phone, and I don't feel like i'm missing anything at all but not owning one, I couldn't care less about games, stuff like Angry Birds dosen't interest me in the least, besides, I couldn't get one even if I did want to as I simply can't afford to buy one, least of all afford to buy all those damn apps, to me using a smart phone would just makes things MORE complicated, not less, I don't know how people surf the web and type on those tiny keyboards so damn fast, it takes me a long time just to send a text on my regular cellphone, I can't imagine typing at an entire post like this on a smartphone, the email function isn't necessary for me either, since I rarely get any mail I absolutely HAVE to read right this second(actually, I believe my cellphone does have an Email function, but damned if I ever figure out how to use it)

The one area in technology i'm not looking forward to is when phyysical copies of video games slowly get replaced by digital downloads.


Fri May 11, 2012 12:06 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
I used to do all kinds of stuff on my iPod, but then the strangest thing happened. I found myself going back to my computer more for browsing, Facebook, and whatnot, and using the iPod pretty much just for games and occasionally stuff like maps and weather.

Oh, and music.

In my eyes, being able to type and browse on that tiny little screen is a novelty that overstates its utility. Maybe once there's a different interface that doesn't involve focusing the whole of my attention on a screen the size of a playing card...


Fri May 11, 2012 12:13 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
I'm 25 and I don't ever plan on owning a smart phone. Why? Expense is the first point. It costs $100/month to own an iPhone. Data packages run over $40/month. This is insanity. That's over $1000 a year for what, really? People to be able to email you whenever, to hold you accountable at any time? Sounds like a pain. Plus if I'm saving an extra $1000 a year in my IRA, that adds up. Either I can skip a line by buying movie tickets on my phone or I can retire early. I mean really.

The second point is freedom. The other day I was driving home from work and my boss called me and asked me to forward an email to a customer. "I can't. I'm in traffic." "Don't you have a smart phone?" "Nope." "Oh wait, here it is, I can forward it myself." Annnnd scene.

The third point is I'm a writer. Those rare times I leave my apartment, I can't afford to be tuned out from what's happening around me.

The fourth point is, why the crap can't I just use my computer? I type 90 wpm. Typing anything on a phone is the most annoying thing ever. Even small texts. I hate it. I'd rather just call someone. For interpersonal interaction via the web, a keypad and a computer screen can't be beat at this point in history.

--

I'm glad I'm at the age where I can remember not having internet. I had to learn how to occupy myself when the electricity went out, which it did a lot in my neighborhood. I was in college the year that Facebook hit and I remember when students would take "technology fasts" and unplug for a while. I'm glad I straddled the two worlds. I'm not lost in either -- no more than anyone else anyway.

Loved this ReelThoughts, James.


Fri May 11, 2012 3:11 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I have been walking to class only to get an email saying class was cancelled numerous times. The smart phone has been a lifesaver for me, and I was even an early adopter with the palm one treo!


OK first of all, I'd be pissed if canceled classes were a redular thing. Secondly, getting an e-mail on the way saying class has been canceled is hardly what I'd call, "life saving". I mean, if it's your first class you've already got out of bed and prepared...and what were you saved...an extra 10 minutes of travel? Not trying to be a jerk here, but let's not get dramatic. People somehow managed to survive the millenia prior to this without smart phones.

I have a smart phone through work; I would never pay for such a thing myself at the current prices, though I do enjoy the convenience of being able to pull up maps, current weather, ReelViews or whatever at my convenience on the road. It's an I-Phone and I have zero music or videos on it. I also have a personal "dumb" cell phone for my personal use that gets unclipped from my person the minute I step in the door at home. That phone's always on silent mode because I don't like disturbing the office. Fairly regularly I'll glance at my "dumb" phone and see I have 2 or 3 messages from hours or maybe days ago from friends or family. Well, gee...have they forgotten my landline number? Whenever I call someone I generally call their cell phone first and if no answer I try their landline. Am I the only one who does this?


Fri May 11, 2012 3:33 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
johnny larue wrote:
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I have been walking to class only to get an email saying class was cancelled numerous times. The smart phone has been a lifesaver for me, and I was even an early adopter with the palm one treo!


OK first of all, I'd be pissed if canceled classes were a redular thing. Secondly, getting an e-mail on the way saying class has been canceled is hardly what I'd call, "life saving". I mean, if it's your first class you've already got out of bed and prepared...and what were you saved...an extra 10 minutes of travel? Not trying to be a jerk here, but let's not get dramatic. People somehow managed to survive the millenia prior to this without smart phones.

I have a smart phone through work; I would never pay for such a thing myself at the current prices, though I do enjoy the convenience of being able to pull up maps, current weather, ReelViews or whatever at my convenience on the road. It's an I-Phone and I have zero music or videos on it. I also have a personal "dumb" cell phone for my personal use that gets unclipped from my person the minute I step in the door at home. That phone's always on silent mode because I don't like disturbing the office. Fairly regularly I'll glance at my "dumb" phone and see I have 2 or 3 messages from hours or maybe days ago from friends or family. Well, gee...have they forgotten my landline number? Whenever I call someone I generally call their cell phone first and if no answer I try their landline. Am I the only one who does this?


I guess I can understand the $$$$ thing...but my brother and I don't pay for our phones or plans. They are covered under my dad's business plan.

But...

What the fuck is wrong with all of you? My brother had an iPhone when he was 14. I'm 25 as well, and over the past 7 years (double major while co-oping), I really couldn't imagine living without my smart phone. Larue, yes, numerous times over the course of 7 years (maybe 1-2 times a semester). I was just giving an example of how getting an email on the fly can be helpful...but here are more examples of smart phone tech. You guys really couldn't use any of this?

I'm driving through a city I've never been before and want a certain something to eat. Low and behold I pull up urban spoon and see whats available near me. Or ask siri (really does work well) to find something for me and give me directions. I'm in my car stuck in traffic and the movie I'm going to might be sold out..what to do. Oh, that's right, I just pull up fandango app, click purchase tickets...presto, I've got a guaranteed ticket waiting on me. Man, I'm away from my office (summer internship) but I really need something on my computer...what to do...oh, that's right, I just vpn to my computer, and get the file I need. I'm driving down the interstate with a car load of people, one who has a laptop. He needs to finish some work and email somebody...what to do? Oh, I just turn my iPhone into a wifi hotspot, and let that person connect...presto...all the while we are streaming music over pandora or spotify (or bluetoohe audio streaming) the songs I have on my phone straight through my car speakers. I might be playing golf on sunday and realized I forgot to set my fantasy lineup...what to do? Oh, I just pull up my ESPN fantasy app and make my line up changes before the games start. What if I want to take a payment from someone's credit card...I just pull up Square app. What if I lose my samsung Tv remote...I just pull up Samsung TV on my phone and everything is jelling.

The most important thing though? What if I get in a heated argument (at a bar or in the car or something) about whether or not so and so starred in The Great Escape? I just pull up IMDB and prove it to them.

None of that appeals to any of you? I have a hard time believing that.


Fri May 11, 2012 5:52 pm
Gaffer

Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:06 pm
Posts: 3
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
Shade wrote:
iljitsch wrote:
Related to this ReelThought is something I've been pondering for a while: more and more, cell phones, text messaging, social networks and so on are becoming important plot elements in movies and especially TV shows. You would think that when watching older movies, the lack of such technologies will at some point pull you out of the story, because a problem would easily solved with them. So far, that hasn't happened to me. But maybe it's already happening to younger people.


This is very true. Think about Home Alone, or An American Tale, or virtually any film involving people being accidentally separated...so much of that would be moot with Facebook/cell phones. You can surf and find some funny blog posts pointing out more films that fall under this principle.

As for me, I enjoy Facebook to a degree, although there are days I consider parting ways with it. One reason I stick with it is that my job involves young people, and Facebook (when handled properly) allows for easy and appropriate communication. For better or worse, most young people view Facebook as a less-formal way of interacting online, and so short messages get the job done better than e-mail, in my mind (I don't interact with teens via texting...Facebook allows a barrier if I desire it that doesn't make them feel ignored in the way texting might).

Along similar lines, Facebook is a great way to "meet" people. Now, I'm not one to surf the web with that intention, but I've met at least three people here on Reelviews who I interact with consistently on Facebook. Yes, we could start an e-mail chain, but quite often we'll discuss events as they go on: basketball games, TV shows, etc... and Facebook makes that very easy to do.

I do think Facebook might be destroying the world, yes, and I certainly don't think it's used purposefully by many people. But I do think such a thing is possible.


Haha, my cousin and I watch movies from before cell phones and comment about how all this trouble could have been avoided if they just had a cell phone...


Fri May 11, 2012 6:06 pm
Profile
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
I got me a SmartPhone in January.....not sure if I consider it a crutch or not. Mostly it's used for phone things, E-mail and Twitter. And then there's checking out Cracked, Dilbert and Xkcd apps but I can live if I don't check them out(all of which are free, I have not payed for any apps nor will I ever). I rarely surf the internet on it cause it's a pain cause I usually search and go on message boards when I'm on the computer and searching for stuff and logging into those tiny boxes suck.

As for Facebook and Twitter, mostly used for to chat with my friends, catch up on the news and promote my show.

LIKE THAT OTHER SONG DAMMIT!!!


Also, I can't check my work e-mail while not at work....cause I don't have my government issued laptop yet! And then I have to get VPN....


Fri May 11, 2012 6:46 pm
Post Re: May 10, 2012: "Unplugged"
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
johnny larue wrote:
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I have been walking to class only to get an email saying class was cancelled numerous times. The smart phone has been a lifesaver for me, and I was even an early adopter with the palm one treo!


OK first of all, I'd be pissed if canceled classes were a redular thing. Secondly, getting an e-mail on the way saying class has been canceled is hardly what I'd call, "life saving". I mean, if it's your first class you've already got out of bed and prepared...and what were you saved...an extra 10 minutes of travel? Not trying to be a jerk here, but let's not get dramatic. People somehow managed to survive the millenia prior to this without smart phones.

I have a smart phone through work; I would never pay for such a thing myself at the current prices, though I do enjoy the convenience of being able to pull up maps, current weather, ReelViews or whatever at my convenience on the road. It's an I-Phone and I have zero music or videos on it. I also have a personal "dumb" cell phone for my personal use that gets unclipped from my person the minute I step in the door at home. That phone's always on silent mode because I don't like disturbing the office. Fairly regularly I'll glance at my "dumb" phone and see I have 2 or 3 messages from hours or maybe days ago from friends or family. Well, gee...have they forgotten my landline number? Whenever I call someone I generally call their cell phone first and if no answer I try their landline. Am I the only one who does this?


I guess I can understand the $$$$ thing...but my brother and I don't pay for our phones or plans. They are covered under my dad's business plan.

But...

What the fuck is wrong with all of you? My brother had an iPhone when he was 14. I'm 25 as well, and over the past 7 years (double major while co-oping), I really couldn't imagine living without my smart phone. Larue, yes, numerous times over the course of 7 years (maybe 1-2 times a semester). I was just giving an example of how getting an email on the fly can be helpful...but here are more examples of smart phone tech. You guys really couldn't use any of this?

I'm driving through a city I've never been before and want a certain something to eat. Low and behold I pull up urban spoon and see whats available near me. Or ask siri (really does work well) to find something for me and give me directions. I'm in my car stuck in traffic and the movie I'm going to might be sold out..what to do. Oh, that's right, I just pull up fandango app, click purchase tickets...presto, I've got a guaranteed ticket waiting on me. Man, I'm away from my office (summer internship) but I really need something on my computer...what to do...oh, that's right, I just vpn to my computer, and get the file I need. I'm driving down the interstate with a car load of people, one who has a laptop. He needs to finish some work and email somebody...what to do? Oh, I just turn my iPhone into a wifi hotspot, and let that person connect...presto...all the while we are streaming music over pandora or spotify (or bluetoohe audio streaming) the songs I have on my phone straight through my car speakers. I might be playing golf on sunday and realized I forgot to set my fantasy lineup...what to do? Oh, I just pull up my ESPN fantasy app and make my line up changes before the games start. What if I want to take a payment from someone's credit card...I just pull up Square app. What if I lose my samsung Tv remote...I just pull up Samsung TV on my phone and everything is jelling.

The most important thing though? What if I get in a heated argument (at a bar or in the car or something) about whether or not so and so starred in The Great Escape? I just pull up IMDB and prove it to them.

None of that appeals to any of you? I have a hard time believing that.

Well I suppose those things are useful if you live in an urban area, but I live in a rural area so none of that stuff is the least bit useful to me, both of my local theaters are close to my house, so traffic jams are a non-issue, and I see no real advantage to buying tickets online, only once has a movie ever been sold out for me, and that was because I was late, I don't have an office job, so I have zero use for retrieving files, I find it irritating when people whip out smartphones at dinner to look up trivia and whatnot, I couldn't care less if somebody believes me on who starred in what film and things like that. Also my business plan with Verizon dosen't cover smartphones, so I couldn't afford one even I wanted to.

So no Red, there's nothing "Wrong" with me for not finding any use for any of those things you mentioned, I just find it much more conveient to do things the old fashioned way, I use my iPod for music and nothing else. I might occasionally use my cellphone to look up celebrity sites, but that's only if i'm really bored.

P.S. IMO fantasy sports lineups are one of the stupidest and most pointless things ever, I don't even care about real sports teams.


Fri May 11, 2012 7:14 pm
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