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January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art" 
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
PeachyPete wrote:
Polanski gets what amounts to a free pass for, well, whatever you want to classify what he did as. And so it goes.

If you ask me, having to live in France for over 30 years is punishment enough for any non-French person. :lol: Honestly, though, it's a trickier situation with Polanski, since a) he's regarded as one of the most prominent filmmakers of the last half century, b) his victim has long since forgiven him, and c) since he's now pushing 80, he's hardly a threat to society anymore. So whether or not he ever actually does any time is pretty much a moot point now.

Personally, I don't think it's an absolute that one has to do prison time for committing a crime... especially if it was an isolated incident. I have nothing wrong with self-imposed exile for an extended period of time, a la Ben Affleck's character in "The Town" or Robert Duvall's in "Get Low."


Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:20 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Patrick wrote:
Vexer wrote:
There's actually quite a few people who believe that Chris Benoit did not in fact murder his family, they believe someone else someone else murdered them and staged Chris' death to look like a suicide, there's some interesting facts about the case, i'm not sure what to say about that, but it does sound plausible


Probably from the same people who think that Courtney Love had a hand in the death of Kurt Cobain :roll:


As for the topic at hand, I can separate art from artist. Going on a wildly different direction, a few months ago I had a discussion with a friend of mine about Chris Brown beating Rihanna. She was all like denouncing Chris Brown forever and ever regardless of his output. I was like, that fact that he beat Rihanna shouldn't effect the quality of his music. IT should be the fact that the quality of his music has been utter crap should effect the quality of his music. And so forth, if something's good it shouldn't matter who did it.

Also, I think a willingness to change and atone helps a bit. Tyson has been forgiven for his sins and you know why? He's self-aware of his hellraising days and there's a real desire for him to change. Or at the very least, knows that he screwed up his life. Hence, we've got sympathy for him and hence we put Tyson in the Hangover and kick Gibson to the curb.

I just think Chris Brown sucks period, his crimes just gave people a more convenient reason not to listen to his music, and it's perfectly undestandable for other women who have been through a similar experience as Rihanna to not want to listen Brown's music.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:42 am
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
I have to say, regardless of my opinion on the actual subject matter, this has been one of the better ReelThoughts in recent memories.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:47 am
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
H.I. McDonough wrote:
Personally, I don't think it's an absolute that one has to do prison time for committing a crime... especially if it was an isolated incident. I have nothing wrong with self-imposed exile for an extended period of time, a la Ben Affleck's character in "The Town" or Robert Duvall's in "Get Low."


I do get what you're saying and I agree with it in certain instances, but I don't think self-exile qualifies as appropriate punishment in the case of rape.

And in Polanski's case, rape is what happened. There's not another reasonable stance to take regarding the incident. And here's the thing: the victim's age isn't relevant. Polanski's defenders often bring up that "she looked 18" or "she didn't look 14." Doesn't matter. She said "no" repeatedly and at every instance of his crime.

I'm not saying I know how to handle the Polanski situation at this time other than my personal choice to not watch his films. But this point must be brought up whenever the case is brought up: he is probably not a serial rapist. But he did commit rape.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:22 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Shade wrote:
H.I. McDonough wrote:
Personally, I don't think it's an absolute that one has to do prison time for committing a crime... especially if it was an isolated incident. I have nothing wrong with self-imposed exile for an extended period of time, a la Ben Affleck's character in "The Town" or Robert Duvall's in "Get Low."


I do get what you're saying and I agree with it in certain instances, but I don't think self-exile qualifies as appropriate punishment in the case of rape.

And in Polanski's case, rape is what happened. There's not another reasonable stance to take regarding the incident. And here's the thing: the victim's age isn't relevant. Polanski's defenders often bring up that "she looked 18" or "she didn't look 14." Doesn't matter. She said "no" repeatedly and at every instance of his crime.

I'm not saying I know how to handle the Polanski situation at this time other than my personal choice to not watch his films. But this point must be brought up whenever the case is brought up: he is probably not a serial rapist. But he did commit rape.


Well let's not forget that Polanski's wife was brutally murdered. That doesn't give you a pass to go rape people of course, but that does make me cut him a little slack

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Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:46 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
So did my post just get deleted or what?

I'm reminded of an article I read in the Guardian (a UK paper) about a Norwegian Black Metal band who are being criticised (by the Guardian no less) for how their latest album is up for an award in Norway. One of the songs contains lyrics that criticise Islam rather harshly.

Funny how in the past thirty years, we've had bands bad mouthing Christianity to no end who are praised and held aloft as heroes. Bad Religion (good band incidentally) are guilty of this, even going as far as to have a logo featuring a red line through a cross. The entire Norwegian Black Metal scene is more or less based on a cultural rebellion against the invasion of Christianity in Northern Europe.

My question is this: If a predominant 'non-Christian' individual was head to drunkenly abuse Christians, suggesting they cause all the wars etc, would they be as black listed as Mel Gibson? I personally think the opposite would happen. People would clap and encourage them to say more.

This isn't to say that Gibson is correct, or right in what he says. The guy is an idiot for saying such things and maybe ought not to drink in future. I'm simply saying, and agreeing with a point made earlier, that this whole issue smacks of hypocrisy.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:47 am
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
JamesKunz wrote:
Well let's not forget that Polanski's wife was brutally murdered. That doesn't give you a pass to go rape people of course, but that does make me cut him a little slack


Sorry what? I'm sure you mean you can understand why he might be a little messed up. The only thing which would make him deserve the slightest bit of slack is the forgiveness of his victim, surely.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:50 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Dragonbeard wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
Well let's not forget that Polanski's wife was brutally murdered. That doesn't give you a pass to go rape people of course, but that does make me cut him a little slack


Sorry what? I'm sure you mean you can understand why he might be a little messed up. The only thing which would make him deserve the slightest bit of slack is the forgiveness of his victim, surely.


Yes that's a more accurate way of putting it. I'm less likely to think of him as evil, and more likely to understand why he might be messed up.

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Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:57 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
rblount27 wrote:
Also, on a side note, I think it's ridiculous that Tom Cruise is always lumped into these conversations. I'm not directing this at James, because I know many people hate Cruise and refuse to watch his stuff, but a little perspective would be nice. One guy hates Jews and wants to kill his ex. Another raped a teenage girl. One weirdo went on a talk show and jumped on a couch like a doofus. Someone married his stepdaughter. Which of these isn't like the rest?


Agreed. Tom Cruise doesn't seem to fit into this discussion. He's done and said some oddball things, but he doesn't warrant being thrown in with Mel Gibson, Roman Polanski, or Woody Allen.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:09 pm
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
oakenshield32 wrote:
With Gibson he is a obnoxious jerk to be sure but he doesn't have the ton of apologists like convicted rapists Mike Tyson and Roman Polanski do inside his industry.My favorite quote about Polanski was from Whoopi Goldberg who wrote Polanski's crime wasn't really rape rape.Okay.


Interestingly, Whoopi Goldberg has steadfastly defended Mel Gibson and has received a lot of backlash for doing so. And his former co-stars Danny Glover and Jodie Foster have stood by him as well. Gibson was in the public eye for 25 years and there was no hint of this type of behavior. This leads me to believe that he may have developed a severe mental disorder.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:22 pm
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
iamed77 wrote:
rblount27 wrote:
Also, on a side note, I think it's ridiculous that Tom Cruise is always lumped into these conversations. I'm not directing this at James, because I know many people hate Cruise and refuse to watch his stuff, but a little perspective would be nice. One guy hates Jews and wants to kill his ex. Another raped a teenage girl. One weirdo went on a talk show and jumped on a couch like a doofus. Someone married his stepdaughter. Which of these isn't like the rest?


Agreed. Tom Cruise doesn't seem to fit into this discussion. He's done and said some oddball things, but he doesn't warrant being thrown in with Mel Gibson, Roman Polanski, or Woody Allen.

Yeah, I don't get why he's lumped in either, I guess it's because alot of people REALLY hate scientologists.

I also don't get think Lindsay Lohan deserves to be compared to Gibson, she may have made some mistakes, but she's really only hurt herself, and before you bring up her DU.I.s, let me mention that the crediblity of the passengers who were in the car with her was seriously called into question by many people(myself included), while Lohan was no doubt very drunk that night, we only have hearsay from those passengers to support the evidence that she was the one doing the driving, so many have speculated that they fabricated the entire story and one of them was actually doing the driving and they switched places with Lohan, who was probably too drunk to remember much of anything that happened that night(hence her saying that "the black guy was driving" , perhaps there was some truth to that), or at least that's how I see it, who knows? maybe i'm wrong.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:13 pm
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
In answer to DPS about Wagner in Isreal. Performances of his works are banned like I mentioned but not the sale of his works.Check out the article online by the WSJ-"Why Isreal Still Shuts Wagner Out" which explains the situation and the author seems to agree that blacklisting artists and expunging them from cultural memory is justified.

There is a debate that Sharon Tate's murder is what messed Roman Polanski up but there is no question that living in the Krakow Ghetto during the Holocaust definitely did.Pretending to be Christian to avoid the death camps where his mother was killed,watching people being executed in front of you,running and hiding in sewers to avoid Germans and stealing food to survive while your 12 will make not make you a nice person in a lot of ways but still is not enough to excuse his violence on another person that was a child.


Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:52 pm
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Who really gives a shit about Mel's shenanigans? So he got drunk (haven't we all?) and raged for a second. Who cares? He is still an awesome actor and even better director. I would love to party with Gibson...I bet he could take down some cold beers and rock with the bros.

All the bad people out there and some actually won't even watch Gibson movies because of a drunk escapade? I thought it was pretty damn funny, and have laughed my ass off several times at those recordings. I would still have a cold beverage with that bro in a heartbeat.

Does anybody care that Tiger Woods banged 57 pornstars? I don't...it doesn't for one second take away from his talent...Hell, he needs to start banging more if it was what gave him his mojo.

What about Charlie Sheen...He just might be THE BRO KING!

http://www.broslikethissite.com/2011/02/150-charlie-sheen.html


Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:03 am
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
It's not just Mel's rant that turns me off, it's his extreme anti-semticism that does, i'll still watch his films as I respect him as an actor, but I do NOT respect him as a person due to his incredibly offensive and racist viewpoints-He actually believes that the Holocaust never happened Let that sink in for a moment :shock: You still want to have a drink with him now?


Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:43 am
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Vexer wrote:
It's not just Mel's rant that turns me off, it's his extreme anti-semticism that does, i'll still watch his films as I respect him as an actor, but I do NOT respect him as a person due to his incredibly offensive and racist viewpoints-He actually believes that the Holocaust never happened Let that sink in for a moment :shock: You still want to have a drink with him now?


Mel Gibson's father is the Holocaust Denier, not Gibson.


Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:15 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Patrick wrote:
Vexer wrote:
It's not just Mel's rant that turns me off, it's his extreme anti-semticism that does, i'll still watch his films as I respect him as an actor, but I do NOT respect him as a person due to his incredibly offensive and racist viewpoints-He actually believes that the Holocaust never happened Let that sink in for a moment :shock: You still want to have a drink with him now?


Mel Gibson's father is the Holocaust Denier, not Gibson.


Yeah but Mel has never really contradicted his father's opinion on this subject

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Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:38 am
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
JamesKunz wrote:
Patrick wrote:
Vexer wrote:
It's not just Mel's rant that turns me off, it's his extreme anti-semticism that does, i'll still watch his films as I respect him as an actor, but I do NOT respect him as a person due to his incredibly offensive and racist viewpoints-He actually believes that the Holocaust never happened Let that sink in for a moment :shock: You still want to have a drink with him now?


Mel Gibson's father is the Holocaust Denier, not Gibson.


Yeah but Mel has never really contradicted his father's opinion on this subject

Yes, and even before "Passion" came out, Gibson got some attention for the church he was going to, which had some very controversial views to say the least.


Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:37 pm
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Quote:
There are plenty of examples of "gross misconduct" in the motion picture industry to consider. From Elia Kazan and Leni Riefenstahl to Mel Gibson and John McTiernan, there's no shortage of cases.


That’s conflating different issues: Kazan and Gibson have acted in a questionable manner or held objectionable views, but as far as I know their movies didn’t express corresponding views (‘On the Waterfront’ could be considered an a posteriori justification for “naming names” though). Leni Riefenstahl made Nazi propaganda movies.

Incidentally, what crime is John McTiernan guilty of? Other than the ‘Rollerball’ remake, I mean.

Quote:
No matter how desperately his publicists seek to spin the various sordid incidents of recent years, it would seem that the old phrase of "where there's smoke, there's fire" applies.


Do you mean that the application of “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” destroyed his media image or are you prepared to judge Mel Gibson’s character based on rumour and singular incidents yourself? This isn’t clear from your article.


Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:26 pm
Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
McTiernan was also involved in the Anthony Pellicano scandal and he was guilty of lying to the feds about it, which is one of the stupidest things you can do, so I can't say I really feel particularly sorry for him, he should've just told the truth instead of denying everything.


Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:47 pm
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Post Re: January 11, 2012: "When a Monster Makes Art"
Mel Gibson and his father are not Holocaust deniers per se but more like Holocaust minimizers or marginalists playing the number games.If you look at the totality of the Nazi program it was to recreate the American West by removing the native population of Poland,Byelorus and Ukraine and moving in German farmers and colonists.The one concrete goals of the German Army was the elimination of the Polish people in it's entirety.At the end of the day the Nazis had killed by starvation and violence 3 million ethnic Poles,11 million Soviet civilians and 3 million out of 6 million Soviet PoWs for almost 17 million in the other genocide of Slavs that no one talks about or make films about in the West.When you add the people murdered by Stalin pre and post war in the same region the number goes even higher.There is an excellent book called Bloodlands that covers this not well known part of history.

There is another person who I would like to add to the monster list;Mark Wahlberg.He was a drug dealer,armed robber and racist thug in his teens.He was convicted of attempted murder for beating a Vietamese man half to death and causing him to lose an eye.When he was asked about that by Leslie Stahl on 60 minutes about compensating his victim for the loss of his eyesight Wahlberg got this angry look on his face and said I apologized in court and it's over.Not a lick of remorse or contrition.There is seems to be a lot of guys in Hollywood that don't own up to what they do.


Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:32 pm
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