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The Official NFL Thread 
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Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
- BUMP -


I will start this off by saying, yes, I want Alex Smith to die. No, really. This is the only way out. I now officially know how every wife in a horrible marriage has ever felt like. "I want the next time I see your face to be the article in the paper about how I poisoned and mutilated you. Night, hon."

Damn right. Finish him off with the shovel from 'Cabin Fever'. I hate! I hate!

It could be worse- that team could have had someone like Ryan Leaf.


Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:35 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
I'm beyond excited for tonight. Not only because Drew Brees is the QB of both of my fantasy teams, but because real, meaningful NFL football will be played. After all the commotion this offseason, I'm glad it's finally here. As an Eagles fan, I'd love it if all the "Dream Team" nonsense could be thrown out the window, but I understand people are going to run with it and make fun of the team as much as possible. If only Vince Young had kept his mouth shut...

Anyway, predictions are always fun and bound to get some folks riled up. So, here you go:

NFC East - Philly
NFC North - Green Bay
NFC South - New Orleans
NFC West - St. Louis
Wild Cards - Minnesota, Dallas

AFC East - New England
AFC North - Pittsburgh
AFC South - Houston
AFC West - San Diego
Wild Cards - NY Jets, Baltimore


Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:10 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
PeachyPete wrote:
I'm beyond excited for tonight. Not only because Drew Brees is the QB of both of my fantasy teams, but because real, meaningful NFL football will be played. After all the commotion this offseason, I'm glad it's finally here. As an Eagles fan, I'd love it if all the "Dream Team" nonsense could be thrown out the window, but I understand people are going to run with it and make fun of the team as much as possible. If only Vince Young had kept his mouth shut...

Anyway, predictions are always fun and bound to get some folks riled up. So, here you go:

NFC East - Philly
NFC North - Green Bay
NFC South - New Orleans
NFC West - St. Louis
Wild Cards - Minnesota, Dallas

AFC East - New England
AFC North - Pittsburgh
AFC South - Houston
AFC West - San Diego
Wild Cards - NY Jets, Baltimore


With Steven Jackson out, I give them a third-place ceiling in their own division. No way they're making a dream playoff run happen.

The rest of your picks are alright, but I'll need to see if Washington's for real or or not over the next few weeks. Philly is definitely looking scary, though.

And as for the Niners - we'll see, we'll see. They could win the division, or they might very well not hit .500 by season's end. My biggest question is who would take the NFC West from them, considering Seattle is 'whatever', St. Louis is hopelessly uneven, and Arizona is still crawling back from rock bottom. San Francisco hasn't had a winning record since the 2002 season, but with their division, they haven't needed to. I don't see that changing this year.

P.S. - Jets vs. Pats will be an exhilarating ride. The AFC East will be an interesting division overall - and if Buffalo somehow manages to rock the boat, it could be wall-to-wall competitive. This season has been compelling thus far.


Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:50 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
With Steven Jackson out, I give them a third-place ceiling in their own division. No way they're making a dream playoff run happen.


They can certainly still win that division. Who's going to run away from them, Jackson or not? It's not like him missing games is unheard of. Plus...

Evenflow8112 wrote:
And as for the Niners - we'll see, we'll see. They could win the division, or they might very well not hit .500 by season's end.


A .500 record might win that division. Again...who's running away with it?

As for the Redskins, color me not a believer. They beat a decidedly awful Giants team far from convincingly.

Evenflow8112 wrote:
P.S. - Jets vs. Pats will be an exhilarating ride. The AFC East will be an interesting division overall - and if Buffalo somehow manages to rock the boat, it could be wall-to-wall competitive. This season has been compelling thus far.


The Bills looked good, but like the Redskins, they beat a team that will top out at 6 or 7 wins. I agree that Pats-Jets will be compelling. The season overall is certainly off to a fascinating start.


Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:58 am
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
With Steven Jackson out, I give them a third-place ceiling in their own division. No way they're making a dream playoff run happen.


Yeah, they had a rough go of it Sunday. I watched that entire game, and they may have been able to pull the upset if not for all the injuries. That 31-13 score wasn't indicative of how that game went. Jackson would have given the Eagles trouble all game. His presence likely would have resulted in more points for the Rams, and would have kept the Eagles' offense off the field. I think Philly still probably pulls the game out, but it would have been closer.

I still think they have a shot in the West simply because that division is so awful. Seattle is a joke of a team, Arizona gave up over 400 yards to Cam Newton in his first start, and the Niners have Alex Smith. I'm not saying the Rams are clearly ahead of any of those teams, but outside of Seattle, I could see anyone coming out of that division.

Evenflow8112 wrote:
The rest of your picks are alright, but I'll need to see if Washington's for real or or not over the next few weeks. Philly is definitely looking scary, though.


I doubt the Skins are for real. Keep in mind that the Giants team they beat was seriously depleted defensively. They also have a completely new offensive line, which usually takes a few weeks into the season to completely come together. I wasn't surprised at all that the Skins won that game, and actually predicted it. The Giants won't be any good until they get healthy. Luckily for them, they play the Rams Monday night.

Also, the Redskins have Rex Grossman. He's the most inconsistent QB in the league. They got "good Rex" Sunday. That means "bad Rex" is coming soon.

Evenflow8112 wrote:
And as for the Niners - we'll see, we'll see. They could win the division, or they might very well not hit .500 by season's end. My biggest question is who would take the NFC West from them, considering Seattle is 'whatever', St. Louis is hopelessly uneven, and Arizona is still crawling back from rock bottom. San Francisco hasn't had a winning record since the 2002 season, but with their division, they haven't needed to. I don't see that changing this year.


I agree. It's a putrid division. Seattle is headed for 3-4 wins with Tavaris Jackson at QB. I wrote them off before the season even began. Again, the other 3 teams all have huge issues, but I don't think any one is head and shoulders better than another. It'll be a 3 team race that takes until the final week or two of the season to decide. Being a Niners fan, I'm sure it will interest you, but I think most NFL fans will have a hard time getting excited to see which 7-9 or 8-8 team wins out.


Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:09 am
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Shade wrote:
The Bills looked good, but like the Redskins, they beat a team that will top out at 6 or 7 wins.


I've seen all of your Facebook updates calling out the Chiefs, and I couldn't agree more. They overachieved last year, and with some expectations and a much tougher schedule this year, they're finished. Getting blown out by the Bills at home isn't a good omen for a team coming off of a division title. Buffalo has a pretty nice offense, but they're far from a good team even if they begin the season 2-0 (they get Oakland at home this Sunday). Stevie Johnson's TD catch on Flowers, however? My favorite play of Week 1. That was a thing of beauty. He's really good.


Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:14 am
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
PeachyPete wrote:
Stevie Johnson's TD catch on Flowers, however? My favorite play of Week 1. That was a thing of beauty. He's really good.


Agreed. He's a stud. I do think Fitzpatrick is better than some of the bad QBs, and he's often fun to watch because at least he's got an arm and attempts some big plays. Again, they beat a bad team, but at the same time, they didn't press the gas at all in the 4th and still put up 41 points. Can they compete for the playoffs? Not really given their division, but they could be a much better team than expected.

Regarding the Chiefs...my feelings for them come not out of hate, but rather being in Chiefs country these days and feeling the need to bring people's expectations back down to earth. For all the reasons you mentioned, they way overachieved last year and are coming back down to earth. Additionally, they just looked so emotionally dead on Sunday. Just ugly all around, and with Berry gone for the year things get even bleaker. Looking at their schedule, they could lose a lot of games.

PeachyPete wrote:
Also, the Redskins have Rex Grossman. He's the most inconsistent QB in the league. They got "good Rex" Sunday. That means "bad Rex" is coming soon.


That's an excellent observation. The term "inconsistent" is often misused when talking about sports. Grossman's highs are higher than the highs of the likes of Alex Smith, Tavaris Jackson, etc etc. But his lows are pretty bad, and you never know when they're coming.


Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:14 pm
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Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
After the Falcons' performace Sunday, I'm afraid of what the Eagles could pull off- and the reaction Vick will get when he returns and if the Eagles win. God, this could get ugly. :cry:


Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:23 pm
Profile YIM
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Shade wrote:
Agreed. He's a stud. I do think Fitzpatrick is better than some of the bad QBs, and he's often fun to watch because at least he's got an arm and attempts some big plays. Again, they beat a bad team, but at the same time, they didn't press the gas at all in the 4th and still put up 41 points. Can they compete for the playoffs? Not really given their division, but they could be a much better team than expected.


I think so too. They should be an entertaining team, partly because they have a good offense, and partly because their defense will probably give up a bunch of points resulting in a bunch of shootouts. They'll do well to finish 8-8, and I'm not sure they're even on the right track, but that's ok. At least they can be somewhat relevant this season.

Shade wrote:
Regarding the Chiefs...my feelings for them come not out of hate, but rather being in Chiefs country these days and feeling the need to bring people's expectations back down to earth. For all the reasons you mentioned, they way overachieved last year and are coming back down to earth. Additionally, they just looked so emotionally dead on Sunday. Just ugly all around, and with Berry gone for the year things get even bleaker. Looking at their schedule, they could lose a lot of games.


I still can't believe they played their starters in the 4th preseason game. The lost Moeaki for the year because of that. Losing Berry in the first game only makes matters worse. They look like they've already quit on the season. Not good. My money was on Sparano being the first coach fired, but it very well could be Haley.

Shade wrote:
That's an excellent observation. The term "inconsistent" is often misused when talking about sports. Grossman's highs are higher than the highs of the likes of Alex Smith, Tavaris Jackson, etc etc. But his lows are pretty bad, and you never know when they're coming.


Exactly. When he's on, Grossman isn't quite elite, but he has moments where he's legitmately as good as someone like Romo or Matt Schaub. Then he has a few games with 3-4 turnovers. You just never know what he's going to bring. Living in the area, I have a ton of friends who are diehard Skins fans. I keep telling how bad I feel for them because Grossman is going to crush their soul one of these weeks.

corpen11 wrote:
After the Falcons' performace Sunday, I'm afraid of what the Eagles could pull off- and the reaction Vick will get when he returns and if the Eagles win. God, this could get ugly. :cry:


I don't know. Atlanta is a great (!) home team under Matt Ryan, Philly can't stop the run, and Michael Turner had 100 yards on 10 carries against a good Bears defense. If Atlanta can run the ball effectively (which they should be able to do) and keep the Philly offense off the field, they will probably win. I think the Falcons are in for a regression this season, but, similar to the Steelers (who play Seattle), they'll be highly motivated after their poor Week 1 performance. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed a W, because Philly's offense has the ability to put up a ton of points every week. It should be a really good game with some high drama as Vick comes back as a starter for the first time (he played, but was a backup 2 years ago). Because of the way they've constructed their team (high powered, quick strike offense to go with a speedy, undersized, pressure defense), Philly is going to be in a lot of one-sided games this season. I don't expect one of those games to be against the Falcons, and that will tell us more about the Eagles than the many blowouts they're going to be a part of.


Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:07 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Who knew that, by having a shared interest in James, that we would all come together and viciously (lovingly) rip each other on sports? I usually look forward to these threads and upcoming sports season more than I do some of James' reviews.


P.S. The Niners could advance deep in the playoffs if they make it. Just a guess. Who knows what Alex Smith can do when he's up til 3 am writing suicide notes?


Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:23 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
Who knew that, by having a shared interest in James, that we would all come together and viciously (lovingly) rip each other on sports? I usually look forward to these threads and upcoming sports season more than I do some of James' reviews.


Agreed. It's pretty fantastic. I suspect that with the NBA lockout, the NFL thread is going to see a bit more action this season.

As for Week 2, it was pretty crazy. The Chiefs are in the running for the worst team ever. Not only have they been outscored 89-10 in 2 games, but they also lose their best player for the season this weekend in Jamaal Charles. Todd Haley is firmly on the hot seat. The Lions are off to a hot start after blowing out KC. I don't know if they're for real yet, but they very well could be. They're certainly going to be tough at home.

Tony Romo gave one of the more impressive efforts we're going to see this season in coming back from a broken rib and apparently a punctured lung (I'm not sure I buy that one). No matter how many times analysts try to spin stats and claim Romo being unclutch is a misnomer, the facts don't lie. He's made horrible mistakes more than a few times in huge spots. Sunday's performance doesn't change that, but it does show he's at least tough as hell. That's a good thing, but he won't lose that rep until he performs well in the postseason. Tough loss for Phil's Niners, but you have to tip your hat to Romo.

How in the hell did the Titans beat the Ravens? That was a classic let down game and it's inexcusable for a veteran team like Baltimore.

Buffalo-Oakland? The most random wildly entertaining game of the week. The Bills are going to be fun to watch all year long. I'll root for them because I like a bunch of their guys, but it's tough to see them amounting to much in that terror of a division. They get the Patriots this Sunday, which could be another shootout. No one wants to face Brady in a shootout right now. That guy is in another realm these days.

My Eagles lost a tough one Sunday night in Atlanta. Give credit to Atlanta for their last 2 drives after going down 10, but they were lucky to be in the game at that point. The Eagles had dominated, but Vick's 3 turnovers proved too costly to overcome (2 led to Falcon TDs and at least 1 took points off the board for Philly). Vick getting a concussion and missing the 4th quarter didn't help, either. I thought Kafka came in and played really well and had Maclin not dropped an easy 4th down pass, he very well may have pulled that game out. If Vick can't go, I'd like to see Kafka get the start over Vince Young. Atlanta was the more desperate team, and they got a W they really needed. Give them credit for the comeback when they were staring 0-2 directly in the face. I know I'm an Eagles fan and you guys might think I'm biased, but it's scary to think how good this team can be if they get it together. They were up 10 when Vick went out after basically gift wrapping Atlanta's first 21 points (none of the 3 drives began on the wrong side of the 50). If they had cut down on turnovers, they easily could have been up by 30 going into the 4th.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:32 am
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
PeachyPete wrote:
As for Week 2, it was pretty crazy. The Chiefs are in the running for the worst team ever. Not only have they been outscored 89-10 in 2 games, but they also lose their best player for the season this weekend in Jamaal Charles. Todd Haley is firmly on the hot seat. The Lions are off to a hot start after blowing out KC. I don't know if they're for real yet, but they very well could be. They're certainly going to be tough at home.


Agreed. I think the Lions are probably pretty good, but as you implied, they haven't exactly played the best the NFL has to offer these past two weeks. Props to them for getting it done, 48 points doesn't happen on accident, but we'll need to see some more before we can pass judgement here. The Chiefs have a history of hanging onto coaches beyond when they should, but if big losses keep happening Haley could be gone in less than a month. Oy.

PeachyPete wrote:
Tony Romo gave one of the more impressive efforts we're going to see this season in coming back from a broken rib and apparently a punctured lung (I'm not sure I buy that one). No matter how many times analysts try to spin stats and claim Romo being unclutch is a misnomer, the facts don't lie. He's made horrible mistakes more than a few times in huge spots. Sunday's performance doesn't change that, but it does show he's at least tough as hell. That's a good thing, but he won't lose that rep until he performs well in the postseason. Tough loss for Phil's Niners, but you have to tip your hat to Romo.


Yeah. There was some absurd article on ESPN where a guy wrote that Romo's non-clutchness is now totally behind him. Reality is that we've known for a long time that Romo is capable of being clutch and capable of choking...heart and desire have never been the issues with him. Silly that this still happens, but everything Romo does is so amplified because of where he plays. 10 teams would trade all of their QBs for him without thinking about it.

PeachyPete wrote:
Buffalo-Oakland? The most random wildly entertaining game of the week. The Bills are going to be fun to watch all year long. I'll root for them because I like a bunch of their guys, but it's tough to see them amounting to much in that terror of a division. They get the Patriots this Sunday, which could be another shootout. No one wants to face Brady in a shootout right now. That guy is in another realm these days.


Next week will indeed be pretty tough assuming Brady doesn't come back down to this planet. Over the next four weeks Buffalo plays New England, Cincy, Philly, NY Giants. If they can find a way to beat NE or Philly...they'll be in excellent shape. But even if they win all the games they should and lose to both, they could still be in decent shape. The division is tough at the top, but I'm not yet a believer in the Jets...looking at the schedule, 10 wins seems pretty possible for the Bills....as does 7 or 8. They are a young team and will have troubles. But they were competitive last year, it's just that they were able to finish things on Sunday. America will get behind this team if they keep winning.

PeachyPete wrote:
My Eagles lost a tough one Sunday night in Atlanta. Give credit to Atlanta for their last 2 drives after going down 10, but they were lucky to be in the game at that point. The Eagles had dominated, but Vick's 3 turnovers proved too costly to overcome (2 led to Falcon TDs and at least 1 took points off the board for Philly). Vick getting a concussion and missing the 4th quarter didn't help, either. I thought Kafka came in and played really well and had Maclin not dropped an easy 4th down pass, he very well may have pulled that game out. If Vick can't go, I'd like to see Kafka get the start over Vince Young. Atlanta was the more desperate team, and they got a W they really needed. Give them credit for the comeback when they were staring 0-2 directly in the face. I know I'm an Eagles fan and you guys might think I'm biased, but it's scary to think how good this team can be if they get it together. They were up 10 when Vick went out after basically gift wrapping Atlanta's first 21 points (none of the 3 drives began on the wrong side of the 50). If they had cut down on turnovers, they easily could have been up by 30 going into the 4th.


Yeah. A very reasoned response. Vick is the most exciting player in the game, but he's not the best, and more people need to realize that. I don't say that out of hate, but only because people need to temper what they expect of him. He's a good thrower, perhaps the best ever of the truly running QBs, but he still struggles at times...the way ESPN and others make it sound, he's both the best running and throwing QB and that just ain't true. He's capable of big mistakes and they got bit by them Sunday night. He's still great and the team will be great as well. He's just less than perfect.

Also, Petey...have you heard that Skip Bayless has been saying (as in, more than once and sticking to it) that Vince Young is and always has been BETTER than Vick and should have been starting before the year started anyway? I know the guy makes his living being a moron, but that's near the top of his idiocy.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:07 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Shade wrote:
Next week will indeed be pretty tough assuming Brady doesn't come back down to this planet. Over the next four weeks Buffalo plays New England, Cincy, Philly, NY Giants. If they can find a way to beat NE or Philly...they'll be in excellent shape. But even if they win all the games they should and lose to both, they could still be in decent shape. The division is tough at the top, but I'm not yet a believer in the Jets...looking at the schedule, 10 wins seems pretty possible for the Bills....as does 7 or 8. They are a young team and will have troubles. But they were competitive last year, it's just that they were able to finish things on Sunday. America will get behind this team if they keep winning.


I don't think the Jets are that good either, but I trust them more than I do the Bills right now. If Buffalo can manage to go 2-2 in that 4 game stretch, they're in solid shape. They'll need to at least split with the Jets and probably sweep Miami. The get Denver and San Diego at some point, the Redskins and Cowboys at some point, and Tennessee. I'm not willing to call them a playoff contender just yet since they've beaten the Chiefs and Raiders (and were on the verge of being blown out at home), but that's a schedule that lends itself to some cautious optimism. I'm really curious to see how they play this weekend against New England. No one expects them to even be competitive, and no one would bat an eye if they lost by 21. I'm not a big believer in a "good loss" but this is one of those instances where the Bills could gain a ton of confidence if they play with the Pats.

Shade wrote:
Yeah. A very reasoned response. Vick is the most exciting player in the game, but he's not the best, and more people need to realize that. I don't say that out of hate, but only because people need to temper what they expect of him. He's a good thrower, perhaps the best ever of the truly running QBs, but he still struggles at times...the way ESPN and others make it sound, he's both the best running and throwing QB and that just ain't true. He's capable of big mistakes and they got bit by them Sunday night. He's still great and the team will be great as well. He's just less than perfect.

Also, Petey...have you heard that Skip Bayless has been saying (as in, more than once and sticking to it) that Vince Young is and always has been BETTER than Vick and should have been starting before the year started anyway? I know the guy makes his living being a moron, but that's near the top of his idiocy.


I've heard Bayless say those things. It's absurd. Vince Young is a perfectly fine QB when he isn't being an insane person. Still, even at his best, he isn't Vick. There's just no real reason to think that, and there's even less of a case to be made in defense of that thought. I'd like Kafka in if Vick can't play because Vince has been hurt for the past few weeks, Kafka was around last year and knows the system better, and he played really well in his short time in Atlanta. There really isn't a less ideal situation for him to come in and take his first meaningful NFL snaps and the kid was really impressive. Obviously, the offense was dumbed down for him, but he was moving the ball.

As for Vick, his overall impact is tough to gauge because of his running abilities, but as a thrower he's not even close to the likes of the elite QBs in the league. In terms of impact he can probably be grouped with those guys, but that's because of what his running adds. It helps him that he's surrounded by arguably the best group of collective WRs, RBs, and TEs in the league. He can throw screens, hitches, digs, or any other 5-10 pattern to McCoy or Maclin or Jackson and they can turn it into a TD or 30-40 yard gain in a flash. Vick's a very good QB, but he's a bit reckless with the ball at times and that really cost the Eagles Sunday night. Like you said, he's incredibly exciting to watch, but he's not Rodgers, or Brady, or Brees. I think he can win a Super Bowl, but that's mostly because I think the Eagles have a great team around him. Granted, he's the most important piece and him getting injured is always a concern, but they're a good team with another QB and a potentially great one with him.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:26 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Admittedly, when I play as Young or Vick in Madden, I break records. I'm impartial, since I think both have amazing potential and ability, though if it's not obvious to you who's better right now, then you need to watch more football. Skip Bayless, on the other hand, needs to Dead Zone himself with a pair of scissors.

What I learned from Week 2:

- The Lions are scarily becoming 'that' team, the phoenix rising from the ashes. They have to be win at least three of four from Green Bay and Chicago to have any hope at winning the division, but it's hard to deny that their road to the playoffs is looking more and more likely with the passage of time.
- The Texans need to win the AFC South or Gary Kubiak needs to work at Domninos. Which is not to say he's a bad coach - but if he's ever going to lead his team to a division title, it is THIS YEAR. He will be shown no mercy in the off season if the standings say otherwise.
- I renege on the Colts winning anything more than five games. If anything, this shows how amazing Peyton Manning really is. He gains all-time points for every ball that Collins fumbles, under-throws, or turns over. Truly among the best 3 or 5 quarterbacks to play the game (although Brady would probably be in there, too, and for damn good reason).
- TOM BRADY GETS ALL CAPS BECAUSE TOM BRADY DESERVES ALL CAPS. SUCK IT, NEWTON.
- The Ravens ruined everything in Week 2. They'll never be the favorite to win any division title until they stop hamstringing their successes with stupid losses. They are, for all intents and purposes, the Mavericks to the Steelers' Spurs; they are always there, right there, but history will open up to them only after they break their own frighteningly consistent mold as runner-ups.
- The Niners. Ffgugbjfskljcdbcsdkjc;lnvejkfbekl,rfklvngjkbmngkbnjkbngkbgm. At least we lunged Romo. I can deal with that.
- Michael Vick vs. The Reliable QB: The best match-up in the NFL. Sure, Philly wins that game 9 out of 10 times, probably, but that day wasn't Sunday. Ryan held court and, while it's not entirely fair to compare Ryan on the field to Vick off of it, you have to be willing to risk that scenario with Vick. This reminded me of when Vicks' Falcons squared off against Maddox's Steelers - two guys who were literally on such hot streaks that neither lost the game.


This is already a great season. For me, the excruciating wait between seasons has made this current one crackle with new excitement and possibility.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:02 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
I renege on the Colts winning anything more than five games. If anything, this shows how amazing Peyton Manning really is. He gains all-time points for every ball that Collins fumbles, under-throws, or turns over. Truly among the best 3 or 5 quarterbacks to play the game (although Brady would probably be in there, too, and for damn good reason).


Brady has to be higher on the all-time list. Without question. Now and always, unless Manning comes back and gets at least 2 more rings. Unless we don't care about rings; unless Marino is #2 behind Manning.

I love Manning. Love him. Want everything good to happen for him. In pure quarterbacking gifts, he might be #1 overall, and he hasn't wasted his gifts too much. But plain and simple, Brady's gotten it done, and he's gotten it done with MUCH less help on offense.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:30 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Shade wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
I renege on the Colts winning anything more than five games. If anything, this shows how amazing Peyton Manning really is. He gains all-time points for every ball that Collins fumbles, under-throws, or turns over. Truly among the best 3 or 5 quarterbacks to play the game (although Brady would probably be in there, too, and for damn good reason).


Brady has to be higher on the all-time list. Without question. Now and always, unless Manning comes back and gets at least 2 more rings. Unless we don't care about rings; unless Marino is #2 behind Manning.

I love Manning. Love him. Want everything good to happen for him. In pure quarterbacking gifts, he might be #1 overall, and he hasn't wasted his gifts too much. But plain and simple, Brady's gotten it done, and he's gotten it done with MUCH less help on offense.



I see your point, especially in terms of championships, although it wouldn't be unfair to mention that Manning's exit from the Colts has lead to the franchise's worst two weeks of play in over a decade, whereas Brady's injury merely prompted (from what I recall) the Pats to miss the postseason. Manning's one ring with the organization is a MAJOR feat considering how poor the rest of their franchise track-record has been. Truth be told, it even embarrassed Marino, as Manning's Colts were never as good as the 80's Dolphin teams Marino was on. I agree that Brady is may edge Manning on any all-time list as long as he has more rings, but the situations they are in display a chasm of difference in terms of team depth. I'd go so far as to say that a second ring for Manning would register as more impressive than Brady's tenure for what was ultimately the best overall team of the last decade.


Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
The Lions are scarily becoming 'that' team, the phoenix rising from the ashes. They have to be win at least three of four from Green Bay and Chicago to have any hope at winning the division, but it's hard to deny that their road to the playoffs is looking more and more likely with the passage of time.


Can you imagine a Thanksgiving game played in Detroit that has an actual impact on playoff races? I honestly can't remember the last meaningful game Detroit played that late in a season. They're an exciting, young team. I'm hoping they keep their play up.

Evenflow8112 wrote:
The Texans need to win the AFC South or Gary Kubiak needs to work at Domninos. Which is not to say he's a bad coach - but if he's ever going to lead his team to a division title, it is THIS YEAR. He will be shown no mercy in the off season if the standings say otherwise.


It doesn't speak highly of Kubiak or Schaub if they can't win that division this year. I don't think they have a chance in hell of making any noise in the playoffs, but they should easily win that division by default. The Colts looks like they're headed for 2-14 without Peyton, the Jags gave up on their season when they cut Garrard days before the season began, and I don't think anyone is sold on the Titans as a division winner despite beating the Ravens. The Texans should blow the whole thing up if they can't do it this season.

Brady-Manning is an interesting, tough debate, but I've always sided with Brady. I think he's done more with less around him, and he's proven to be one of the great postseason QBs. People love Peyton (as do I), but he just isn't a great postseason QB. His record is hovering around .500, he didn't play particularly well in the Super Bowl he did win (if you remember their defense was very improved during that postseason run), and threw a pick-6 to lose another Super Bowl. I think Peyton gets a bit of a pass for a fairly long history of not being elite when elite is needed because everyone loves him. His high mark as a QB was the AFC Championship Game 2 years ago against the Jets where he absolutely shredded the league's best pass defense. He then went out and blew the Super Bowl with the interception. Aside from that incredible performance against the Jets and a few Wild Card games where he destroyed the Broncos, he's a very average postseason QB. It's something you won't hear from the mainstream media because Peyton is like a sacred cow to them, but the evidence is there. He's a mostly average postseason QB. That's why I can't put him ahead of Brady who's shown the same kind of elite play in the postseason that he's shown in the regular season.


Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:50 am
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
See, my feeling on Manning is that, if he had never won a title, then I would understand the possibility of Brady usurping him on the all-time lists. Brady still might. It is worth noting, however, to get to that first, poorly played Super Bowl, Manning had to propel the Colts past the Pats in the AFC championship game - an unenviable task at the time (people may forget, but the Patriots haven't been a real playoff threat for nearly half a decade - watch year's game against the Jets to gauge their disintegration in those regards), and a big game situation that Manning ultimately mastered and conquered. I totally see, and may subscribe to, Brady's supremacy, but Manning hasn't so much figured into criticisms as he's done what it takes to win and has usually overturned those criticisms eventually. He DIDN'T become Marino, and that's damn impressive on its own merits.

For one thing, it does seem significant that you would prompt me to adjust my preseason selection of Indy to win their division, whereas Brady's injury again didn't really make the Patriots so awful as to have a no chance at winning their division. I think that speaks to the depth of the organizations that both quarterbacks have been playing with, and I don't see how that doesn't favor Brady, sometimes immeasurably. It takes some strain for me to envision a New England Patriots team that is poorly made and relies solely on its quarterback. Hasn't been that way for a while.


Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:32 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Evenflow8112 wrote:
For one thing, it does seem significant that you would prompt me to adjust my preseason selection of Indy to win their division, whereas Brady's injury again didn't really make the Patriots so awful as to have a no chance at winning their division. I think that speaks to the depth of the organizations that both quarterbacks have been playing with, and I don't see how that doesn't favor Brady, sometimes immeasurably. It takes some strain for me to envision a New England Patriots team that is poorly made and relies solely on its quarterback. Hasn't been that way for a while.


The organization Brady plays for is one of the best and most competent in sports, but the Colts are not horribly run (though I concede New England's a tad better in this regard). However, you're applying the one Cassell year as if that would happen any year if Brady went down, which just isn't true, that was a perfect storm. Obviously Brady has the benefit of Belichick and that can't be overstated and gives him way better coaching that Manning ever got (Dungy is a good guy who benefited from Manning a lot more than the opposite was true). But Brady carried some pretty bad defenses himself quite a bit, and never had two in-their-prime HOF WRs to work with. Any offensive player is going to have their best year ever playing with either one of these guys, and no one's saying that Brady's way down the list. But in any sport, with any athlete, one ring alone can be challenged pretty easily. Manning had to "beat" Rex effin' Grossman in the Super Bowl that he won. He deserves (and rightfully took and accepted) all the blame for the loss to the Saints. The last few years have been incredibly impressive for him, no doubt. But when you say (correctly) that the Pats have fallen off recently, lets not forget that Brady came from NOWHERE to lead the Pats to 3 out of 4 Super Bowls 10 years ago.

Again, I think it's close...but even if we set aside rings a little bit, Brady still has a better QB rating and to some passes the eye-test more, so I'm not saying it's JUST the rings that put Brady over the top.


Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:28 pm
Post Re: The Official NFL Thread
Shade wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
For one thing, it does seem significant that you would prompt me to adjust my preseason selection of Indy to win their division, whereas Brady's injury again didn't really make the Patriots so awful as to have a no chance at winning their division. I think that speaks to the depth of the organizations that both quarterbacks have been playing with, and I don't see how that doesn't favor Brady, sometimes immeasurably. It takes some strain for me to envision a New England Patriots team that is poorly made and relies solely on its quarterback. Hasn't been that way for a while.


The organization Brady plays for is one of the best and most competent in sports, but the Colts are not horribly run (though I concede New England's a tad better in this regard). However, you're applying the one Cassell year as if that would happen any year if Brady went down, which just isn't true, that was a perfect storm. Obviously Brady has the benefit of Belichick and that can't be overstated and gives him way better coaching that Manning ever got (Dungy is a good guy who benefited from Manning a lot more than the opposite was true). But Brady carried some pretty bad defenses himself quite a bit, and never had two in-their-prime HOF WRs to work with. Any offensive player is going to have their best year ever playing with either one of these guys, and no one's saying that Brady's way down the list. But in any sport, with any athlete, one ring alone can be challenged pretty easily. Manning had to "beat" Rex effin' Grossman in the Super Bowl that he won. He deserves (and rightfully took and accepted) all the blame for the loss to the Saints. The last few years have been incredibly impressive for him, no doubt. But when you say (correctly) that the Pats have fallen off recently, lets not forget that Brady came from NOWHERE to lead the Pats to 3 out of 4 Super Bowls 10 years ago.

Again, I think it's close...but even if we set aside rings a little bit, Brady still has a better QB rating and to some passes the eye-test more, so I'm not saying it's JUST the rings that put Brady over the top.


Given, Manning's one title is not going to go down as Dirk's title run will (a run that only skeptics double-talk). I'm not really deciding on either, because personally, I think they are both excellent and are both HOFers. I'm just pointing out that, with that ring, no matter what, this can't become a Montana and Marino argument. I find Manning's one title win, which nevertheless came as a result of him winning a clutch playoff match against Tom Brady himself, to make the equation far more complex. Brady similarly has lost a Super Bowl, and against Eli Manning (yes, the half-a-step-above-average Manning), which rendered his best season slightly moot.

I do conclusively believe that this is easily one of the best, ever-shifting debates in sports.


Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:44 pm
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