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There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers. 
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Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
thered47 wrote:
Any art that says nothing is purposeless, an abstraction without meaning


I believe that is an opinion being presented as a fact. What if the art's silence itself has a purpose different than that of visceral action? What if its existence is the significant element of it's appeal, for any number of reasons? What if its impotence to express implies the artist's inability to express themselves to the world anymore, it's very creation an ode to artistic frustration, naked in emotion and design with no discernible pattern or motion? It seems like there are ways to go with even static art, at least in terms of artistic interpretation.

Now I'm NOT saying I think any of that is how I truly feel, nor do I openly browse many artist galleries whenever I'm on the East coast, but I figured if I'm raising an issue I might as well flesh out an example. Either way, I disagree with the principle of the original quote.


Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:52 am
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
And food is be art, both before and after we digest it.


Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:55 am
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Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Evenflow8112 wrote:
And food is be art, both before and after we digest it.


You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst

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Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:03 pm
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Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Then what good is it?


Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:19 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
JamesKunz wrote:
You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst


Yeah. Many things are capable of being art (and therefore, capable of being good art), but I don't think anything is art inherently.


Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:35 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
JamesKunz wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
And food is be art, both before and after we digest it.


You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst

What makes paintings and sculptures exceptional?


Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:43 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Ken wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
And food is be art, both before and after we digest it.


You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst

What makes paintings and sculptures exceptional?


Opinions.


Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:27 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
JamesKunz wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
And food is art, both before and after we digest it.


You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst


I hate to troll here (which is just about the worst lie I've ever told anyone), but 'art' as a term is vague at best. I mean, alright, I'll give you the Sistine Chapel, or the 'Mona Lisa', but what about 'art' conventions where people create little non-functioning robots that look like miniature Mad Max vehicles? 'Art' may have been a relevant term once long ago, but I think it has definitely lost its purity as a straight up term in modern times, and therefore, if you want to call a film like 'Repulsion' a piece of art, you're not going to run into many aggressive detractors.


Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:43 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Art has not lost purity, so much as transitioned from an elitist field to a populist one. And, as with any such transition, you necessarily have to accept a broadening of the definition. With more people working in the field and without elitist standards to guide them, you're going to see both a net drop in sophistication and a wider variety of materials, subjects, etc.

Know why art can't be specific? There is a great deal of stuff out there that was created with a legitimate artistic impulse, but, by technicality, would be cast out of any specific definition. Only by keeping it broad and simple, with the number of provisos kept to a minimum, the definition can be inclusive enough to withstand whatever advances may come.

Many critics hated Beethoven's 9th Symphony when it premiered. By definition, it wasn't a symphony, thus, it was a failure of the symphonic form. As it stands now, the definition of the word "symphony" has been broadened to include the innovations made by the 9th. Did it allow a lot of dubious stuff into the program as a result? I'm sure it did. But the alternative would be absurd. This might be a microcosmic example, but you get my meaning.

One thing that must occur is that people need to stop seeing the term "art" as a value judgment. Art can be bad. You don't have to like all art. But it doesn't stop being art just because it's bad or because somebody finds it repugnant or stupid.


Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:56 pm
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Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Ken wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
Evenflow8112 wrote:
And food is be art, both before and after we digest it.


You cannot say that anything "is" art (especially with definitive italics!) because, with the possible exception of paintings and sculpture, the term is vague at best and bullshit at worst

What makes paintings and sculptures exceptional?


Nothing that I know of, but you'd get less argument with these two

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Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:20 pm
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Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Ken wrote:
What makes paintings and sculptures exceptional?


Because French people and the New York Times says so.

All kidding aside, art is purely subjective. Something does not need to be pleasing to many to qualify as art.

Uwe Boll, in his mind, makes films for a reason.

G.G. Allin shat on people with a purpose, in his mind.

Both men, in their minds, are artists. Some agree, many do not. I would say they are both artists. Not good (in my opinion) but artists all the same.

I find this notion that something is not art because "I don't like it" is pretentious nonsense. Oddly enough most people that are of this mindset typically have no ground to walk on as they've never created anything of any value themselves for people to discover and enjoy (or not).


Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:33 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Let me just lay down a couple definitions of art that I personally find interesting and useful. Both, incidentally, are from guys whom I consider to be extremely qualified to talk on the issue.

"The most important thing in art is the frame. For painting, literally; for other arts, figuratively--because, without this humble appliance, you can't know where the art stops and the real world begins... If John Cage, for instance, says, 'I'm putting a contact microphone on my throat, and I'm going to drink carrot juice, and that's my composition,' then his gurgling qualifies as his composition because he put a frame around it and said so. 'Take it or leave it, I now will this to be music.' After that it's a matter of taste." - Frank Zappa

"Art, as I see it, is any human activity which doesn't grow out of either of our species' two basic instincts: survival and reproduction... because of its independence from our evolution-bred instincts, art is the way we assert our identities as individuals and break out of the narrow roles nature cast us in." - Scott McCloud


Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:21 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Ken...I don't like the cheeseburger metaphor either. There is a HUGE difference between a Big Mac and a gourmet kobe cheeseburger prepared by a fine chef.

Now I enjoy both of those different preparations. Sometimes when I'm hungary and lazy, I will drive through the local McDonald's and get a number 1. It tastes good going down, but afterwards I usually don't feel good about myself because I know I just ate a whole buch of stuff that was not good for me. That is why fast food exists...for quick service to feel a basic need that people have (emphasis on quick, not nutritional and healthy). Please eat nothing but organic prepared meals for a couple of weeks (by a top chef) and then go order McDonalds. It may taste good going down, but you are probably not going to be feeling well in a while. I would feel guilty that I scarfed it down.

I believe there are some movies that people should feel guilty about liking. Somebody out there likes Showgirls. That's fine, but that person is never going to be taken seriously putting showgirls in a conversation with The Godfather, without mentioning how guilty one feels in liking that POS movie with a glorified classic.


Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:41 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
So if someone has an honest, genuine reaction and attachment to both Showgirls and The Godfather, is that person wrong?


Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:02 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Also, I would point out that while you ostensibly take issue with the metaphor, you are working from within it in order to decry it. It may be more robust and explanatory than you think, given that it seems to be consistent even with your negative observations--for example, that there are varying levels of quality to the cheeseburger paradigm, and that some cheeseburgers are inevitably better (and better for you) than others.


Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:17 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
Ken wrote:
Also, I would point out that while you ostensibly take issue with the metaphor, you are working from within it in order to decry it. It may be more robust and explanatory than you think, given that it seems to be consistent even with your negative observations--for example, that there are varying levels of quality to the cheeseburger paradigm, and that some cheeseburgers are inevitably better (and better for you) than others.


Hmmm, I guess I am using it huh? I'll just go for a straight example. Roadhouse is a terrible movie, but everytime it comes on, I end up watching it. I always hate the fact that I do, too. I feel guilty about it. I promise I will never bring it up when discussing top tier movies...there is no argument for it. I'll go along with the cheeseburger if you'll admit that "guilty" pleasures do exist, as I explained using your metaphor.

I just came up with another, however. Take someone who is trying to quit smoking. That person is doing really well not smoking [chewing gum, on the patch, excersising etc (**watching good films**)], but every so often, he slips up and has to take a drag (watches Season of the Witch). He should feel gulity afterwards.


Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:10 am
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
Ken wrote:
Also, I would point out that while you ostensibly take issue with the metaphor, you are working from within it in order to decry it. It may be more robust and explanatory than you think, given that it seems to be consistent even with your negative observations--for example, that there are varying levels of quality to the cheeseburger paradigm, and that some cheeseburgers are inevitably better (and better for you) than others.


Hmmm, I guess I am using it huh? I'll just go for a straight example. Roadhouse is a terrible movie, but everytime it comes on, I end up watching it. I always hate the fact that I do, too. I feel guilty about it. I promise I will never bring it up when discussing top tier movies...there is no argument for it. I'll go along with the cheeseburger if you'll admit that "guilty" pleasures do exist, as I explained using your metaphor.

I just came up with another, however. Take someone who is trying to quit smoking. That person is doing really well not smoking [chewing gum, on the patch, excersising etc (**watching good films**)], but every so often, he slips up and has to take a drag (watches Season of the Witch). He should feel gulity afterwards.

I'm not like that, if I watch a film and hate it, I never watch it again, and I NEVER feel guilty about liking films, no matter how many negative reviews critics nad audiences give them.


Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:08 pm
Post Re: There are no guilty pleasures. There are only cheeseburgers.
roastbeef_ajus wrote:
I just came up with another, however. Take someone who is trying to quit smoking. That person is doing really well not smoking [chewing gum, on the patch, excersising etc (**watching good films**)], but every so often, he slips up and has to take a drag (watches Season of the Witch). He should feel gulity afterwards.
Not a terribly representative metaphor, unless great movies cause you to have physically excruciating cravings for non-great movies.


Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:30 pm
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