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Ranking Pixar Films by Tier 
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Not yet. It could, but it hasn't happened yet. Life expectancy is still climbing in the U.S. at the moment.


Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:02 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
CasualDad wrote:
Personal choice hasn't changed much, but it used to be that poorer people (most of the population) did not have much in the way of choices. Their food consumption was very much limited by their ability to afford the food. With food in much greater abundance, the costs are lower and they can eat more. Obesity has always been fairly common among people that could afford to eat as much as they wanted.


Even if true, that doesn't explain the obestiy rate rising a mere 2% from 1960-1980 and then nearly tripling from 1980 to the present (around 12% to around 36%). It's also expected to reach close to 50% by 2030.

You don't have to care, but at some point the added costs this constantly rising sect of the population incurs will be passed along to you or your children. Putting blinders on and just taking care of you and yours is noble, but when there's 30+ years of evidence that that isn't working, I'm not sure why you'd want to stick with that line of thinking when the situation is predicted to worse as time goes on. It's clearly not an issue that's going to solve itself.

NotHughGrant wrote:
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Again, the movie isn't just saying people are getting fatter, it's making the correlation between that, and technological advancements making that so. That's the "so what" of the matter.And people living longer is proof of nothing really, other than technology has advanced to the point that we're able to keep unhealthy people alive. People aren't healthier (Unke posted as I was typing this and illustrates this).


Hahaha, the last 2 generations of my family have had cases of TB and Polio.

But no, you're right, those extra couple of inches on the waist are far worse.


There's a gigantic difference between obesity and a virus like TB or Polio. No one is comparing them except you. Your family members catching those 2 viruses, as unfortunate as that is, is not terribly relevant to this discussion. Overall health and wellness and having a viral infection aren't the same thing.

I'd suggest doing some research on the subject of obesity - the health effects, costs, trends over the past 30 years, expectations of both rates and costs over the next 20 years, etc. I'm no expert, but if you think having a few extra inches is obesity, or that's it's somehow not a legitimate health concern, then you're wildly out of touch with the facts.

NotHughGrant wrote:
Life expectancy is pushing 80 in much of the developed world. You might want to compare that to 2 generations ago before bitching about type 2 diabetes in 50 year olds.


Why? Is it not still a huge issue? We should ignore it because it wasn't an issue a generation or two ago? Because they died younger and had it worse? That's pretty absurd. By this logic, no new health issue would ever get solved, or bettered. AIDS wasn't the Black Plague, so why even bother, right?

A mod can probably move this discussion if they see fit since we aren't really talking about Wall-E anymore.


Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
PeachyPete wrote:
You don't have to care, but at some point the added costs this constantly rising sect of the population incurs will be passed along to you or your children. Putting blinders on and just taking care of you and yours is noble, but when there's 30+ years of evidence that that isn't working, I'm not sure why you'd want to stick with that line of thinking when the situation is predicted to worse as time goes on. It's clearly not an issue that's going to solve itself.

Blinders involve overlooking the facts as they are now. Right now the life expectancies are still climbing - peoples essential medical needs are somehow being met. Costs are rising dramatically, but forming a collective does nothing to reduce the overall costs (how can it except by force?). The same population which is driving the cost now will need to be covered by any system. The only way to reduce overall costs are either to reduce overall service or to reduce the costs of the service. Perhaps someday there will automated systems that can diagnose and treat medical conditions. But right now we still want mostly the same experts and facilities, so reducing costs means reducing them. Same thing with obesity. People either need personal incentive to avoid obesity (you will save money), or they will need to be forced somehow by restricting access to food, or forced to labor or exercise. Collectives remove personal incentives and police states are not really a preferable alternative to lower health care costs.


Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
CasualDad wrote:
Blinders involve overlooking the facts as they are now.


No offense, but that's exactly what you're doing when you claim obesity rates are rising because poor people have access to more food.

CasualDad wrote:
The only way to reduce overall costs are either to reduce overall service or to reduce the costs of the service.


They're also reduced if you reduce the frequency of the illness/condition. Obesity is highly, highly preventable. Much more than most other health conditions. It really is as simple as less obese people = less of a burden on the system. If someone doesn't get Type-2 diabetes at age 50 and lives until age 80, they aren't a burden to the system. A disease like Type-2 diabetes is something insane like 90% preventable. If people live a healthy life, everyone benefits because the occurance of stuff like Type-2 diabetes and heart disease would be greatly reduced. The effect that would have on healthcare costs is immeasurable.

CasualDad wrote:
People either need personal incentive to avoid obesity (you will save money), or they will need to be forced somehow by restricting access to food, or forced to labor or exercise. Collectives remove personal incentives and police states are not really a preferable alternative to lower health care costs.


How is doing nothing an acceptable alternative, especially considering the problem is going to get significantly worse? I'm not saying there's an easy fix to any of it, but Jesus Christ, if you look at the data, I don't understand how you can just not care. Something as easily preventable as obesity shouldn't be this large of a problem.


Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:01 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
It seems as though it should be easy, but how do you force people to stop doing what you don't want them to do? Cigs were an epidemic. Laws were passed, taxes were raised, people stopped smoking and now there's an obesity epidemic. You just simply can't stop people from doing what is bad for themselves just because you want them to. You either have to do it through force, very good persuasion which usually involves some sort of monetary incentive, or you can accept that people are free to do to themselves what they want to do at their own cost. I like to help a brother out where I can, but many people don't want my help.

In any event, I apologize for derailing the thread. I was trying to hard to explain why I was somewhat bored by WALL-E due to lack of interest in part of the message and then drifted way overboard in the discussion. I will cease and allow you the last word if you wish.


Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:50 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
I think I lost the thread early on by the talk of spiteful, contempt, and message. The film provides it in the background as a possible sci-fi scenario, with technology enabling what is already there but by no mean being the sole cause (more of a declination of morale, with the president's sleazy persona being the indicator). All of it is set up as background to the main, very prominent focus on Wall-E and Eve's story, so I don't see how it is a message movie, especially considering the movie's tone. It feels no different than the decayed LA as the background of Blade Runner, and that's even more pessimistic view of mankind.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:05 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
peng wrote:
I think I lost the thread early on by the talk of spiteful, contempt, and message. The film provides it in the background as a possible sci-fi scenario, with technology enabling what is already there but by no mean being the sole cause (more of a declination of morale, with the president's sleazy persona being the indicator). All of it is set up as background to the main, very prominent focus on Wall-E and Eve's story, so I don't see how it is a message movie, especially considering the movie's tone. It feels no different than the decayed LA as the background of Blade Runner, and that's even more pessimistic view of mankind.


Yeah but Blade Runner is a film for adults, and an unabashed art film. Wall-E is for kids/families, and doesn't commit itself to being an art film. I don't think it's really in Pixar's range to tackle broad themes on humanity. I think sometimes it's better for a film to stick to being just some really good fun.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:11 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Like I say, it utilises this theme incidentally, which is even more worrying if you think about it.

Anyway, should probably defuse before it all blows out of proportion

Edit: Just to clarify:

Quote:
If someone doesn't get Type-2 diabetes at age 50 and lives until age 80, they aren't a burden to the system


This isn't true. Dementia is the ticking time bomb in the medical and caring professions. It's not nice or PC to say it (and we'll all hopefully grow old) the elderly are by definition a burden on the system.

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Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:33 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
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it utilises this theme incidentally, which is even more worrying if you think about it.


Why is that? Because it takes it too much for granted?


Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:59 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Yeah. Because it's not even a conscious piece of propaganda in the spirit of Michael Moore, It just accepts the premise as assumed truth

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Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:24 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Again, how is it more presumptuous than other sci-fi set in the future? Like, is anyone going to watch it and really infer thar the filmmaker absolutely believe this to be what's going to happen? I even think the brightly colored animation will make people take it less seriously than the grimmer sci-fi affairs with real actors.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:59 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Fair enough.

I'm done with this particular subject

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Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:28 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
My problem with the social commentary in the movie isn't what it's saying, to me it just felt out of place to me. It felt rather jarring to me. It felt forced and tacked on.


Last edited by ilovemovies on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:37 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
CasualDad wrote:
It seems as though it should be easy, but how do you force people to stop doing what you don't want them to do? Cigs were an epidemic. Laws were passed, taxes were raised, people stopped smoking and now there's an obesity epidemic. You just simply can't stop people from doing what is bad for themselves just because you want them to. You either have to do it through force, very good persuasion which usually involves some sort of monetary incentive, or you can accept that people are free to do to themselves what they want to do at their own cost. I like to help a brother out where I can, but many people don't want my help.


I understand what you're saying and mostly agree. I just think when things start to get out of hand, which we both recognize they are, the people doing what they want at their own cost idea goes out the window because it stops being their own cost and becomes the cost of others. That's when I think it's fair for the government to come in and govern - when people prove they are incapable of doing whatever they want in a responsible way. It's in no way an easy solution because our country prides ourself on personal freedoms. I just think freedoms stop being personal when they start negatively effecting others.

NotHughGrant wrote:
Edit: Just to clarify:

Quote:
If someone doesn't get Type-2 diabetes at age 50 and lives until age 80, they aren't a burden to the system


This isn't true. Dementia is the ticking time bomb in the medical and caring professions. It's not nice or PC to say it (and we'll all hopefully grow old) the elderly are by definition a burden on the system.


Ok, they're much less of a burden than they normally would be. Either way, the cost of dealing with diabetes for 30 years is much higher than dealing with dementia for the last few years of someone's life. Especially when you consider getting diabetes is incredibly avoidable and dementia, well, isn't.

And you can't cite life expectancy as proof that health is doing just fine on one hand and then call old people a burden on the system on the other. Those two ideas completely contradict each other.

MGamesCook wrote:
Yeah but Blade Runner is a film for adults, and an unabashed art film. Wall-E is for kids/families, and doesn't commit itself to being an art film. I don't think it's really in Pixar's range to tackle broad themes on humanity. I think sometimes it's better for a film to stick to being just some really good fun.


Why? I think a great deal of Pixar's output does exactly what you're saying it shouldn't. One of the main reasons they're so highly regarded is because they're able to seamlessly mesh those artistic ideas with really good fun. I can understand someone not liking Wall-E if that marriage isn't as seamless as they think it should be (basically what ilovemovies is saying), but I don't understand saying they should make movies just this way or just that way.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:03 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
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And you can't cite life expectancy as proof that health is doing just fine on one hand and then call old people a burden on the system on the other. Those two ideas completely contradict each other.


No they don't. My Granddad lived a good standard of life until the day he died, aged 87.

But I don't think he'd have coped working until that age.

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Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:10 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
NotHughGrant wrote:
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And you can't cite life expectancy as proof that health is doing just fine on one hand and then call old people a burden on the system on the other. Those two ideas completely contradict each other.


No they don't. My Granddad lived a good standard of life until the day he died, aged 87.

But I don't think he'd have coped working until that age.


So your grandfather wasn't a burden on the system then, correct? But you said old people are, by definition, a burden on the system. I don't see how that's not a contradiction.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:42 am
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
I don't see how you don't see. I don't like to use the term "burden on the system" about any individual, but on a national balance sheet, or course they are.


An old-age pension is about £8,000 a year. It costs about £25,000 a year to keep someone in care.

+ the health costs of old age for (none self-inflicted) age related illnesses. Cancer more prevalent in old age for example

This isn't rocket science

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Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:10 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
NotHughGrant wrote:
I don't see how you don't see. I don't like to use the term "burden on the system" about any individual, but on a national balance sheet, or course they are.


An old-age pension is about £8,000 a year. It costs about £25,000 a year to keep someone in care.

+ the health costs of old age for (none self-inflicted) age related illnesses. Cancer more prevalent in old age for example

This isn't rocket science


Glad you said that. So what you're saying is the older someone gets the less healthy they get, right? In other words, life expectancy isn't proof of overall health.

Hence:

PeachyPete wrote:
you can't cite life expectancy as proof that health is doing just fine on one hand and then call old people a burden on the system on the other. Those two ideas completely contradict each other.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
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Why? I think a great deal of Pixar's output does exactly what you're saying it shouldn't. One of the main reasons they're so highly regarded is because they're able to seamlessly mesh those artistic ideas with really good fun. I can understand someone not liking Wall-E if that marriage isn't as seamless as they think it should be (basically what ilovemovies is saying), but I don't understand saying they should make movies just this way or just that way.


Yeah, I basically just agree with ilovemovies. Never felt like it was the main focus of the movie when maybe it should've been.


Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Ranking Pixar Films by Tier
Sounds like I should watch Wall-E.

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