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Batman v Superman : Dawn of Justice (2016) 
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Very interesting, Ken.

What I take from that (in an extremely reductive sense admitted) is that people got soft. They began valuing their own feelings over the outside world.

What you also wrote reminds me of a fascinating and provocative question I see in the media from time-to-time - "Is Margaret Thatcher a feminist icon?"

You may well wonder what the hell this has to do with Wonder Woman. But if Wonder Woman was robbed of her prowess by -

1. The post-War conservatism of the 50s; then
2. Subsequent waves of feminism; then
3. Spoilt brats who don't want their feelings provoked

then what exactly is an empowered feminist figure?

Although I suspect the new movie will avoid answering this question

Edit: I would argue something like the picture of Wondfer Woman at the refugee/prison camp you posted up earlier in this thread.

But such a vision would offend too many sensibilities. I suspect we'll be left with a desexualised social worker who dresses in penis-envy designer suits.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:08 am
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
I don't know that people got "soft" per se--recall that this was a society of men who'd fought in WWII and women who'd worked tough labor-oriented jobs for the war effort. But there was a lot of social pressure on everybody to assume neatly-ordered social roles. It wasn't just about gender roles, but about everybody affirming their allegiance to this new post-war society. Comics publishers that didn't provide conventional role models for kids were wiped from existence--except for EC Comics, which had to ditch its horror and crime comics, but saved its skin by starting Mad Magazine. DC saved itself by playing down Wonder Woman's sexuality, Superman's rebelliousness, Batman's hardassery, and so on. The characters took on an avuncular, almost parent-surrogate role.

An empowered feminist figure in a superhero story would, at the very least, have to have the same levels of agency, individuality, and inner life that people take for granted in male superheroes. In the last decade or so, movies have explored the inner struggles and dreams of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, and we've seen them step up and almost singlehandedly save the day. I can't imagine a female character getting the same treatment from Hollywood, though I'd love to be proven wrong.

One thing writing feminist characters isn't about is having them get up on a soapbox and make speeches about girl power and being able to compete with the boy heroes--in fact, that's an awful trap that a lot of stories fall into when storytellers have no idea what to do with their feminist characters. Another trap is to make the female characters a weird combination of hypersexualized and super-antagonistic with men as a matter of course, which is something Frank Miller has done a lot in the years since he went crazy.

I know this isn't superhero-related, but Olivia Wilde recently brought something up in an interview that I thought was really interesting. She was part of a live reading of the script of American Pie, except girls were cast in the guy roles and guys were cast in the girl roles. End result: the girls had a great time and the guys got bored very quickly.

Those are roles that female actors are asked to assume as a matter of routine. That's what they're stuck with. And if this happens with one of our most famous teen sex comedies, which demands a sexual element and the involvement of female characters, imagine what would happen with one of our superhero movies--many of which could be scrubbed of female characters altogether and still play out in more or less the same way.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:34 am
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Ken wrote:
I don't know that people got "soft" per se--recall that this was a society of men who'd fought in WWII and women who'd worked tough labor-oriented jobs for the war effort. But there was a lot of social pressure on everybody to assume neatly-ordered social roles. It wasn't just about gender roles, but about everybody affirming their allegiance to this new post-war society. Comics publishers that didn't provide conventional role models for kids were wiped from existence--except for EC Comics, which had to ditch its horror and crime comics, but saved its skin by starting Mad Magazine. DC saved itself by playing down Wonder Woman's sexuality, Superman's rebelliousness, Batman's hardassery, and so on. The characters took on an avuncular, almost parent-surrogate role.


Of all the things that may have stunted social progress for women, the nostalgic conservatism of the 50s is the most forgivable, for sure. I was more referring to latter-day disempowerment. I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but I'm working 'til late tonight and I've just eaten a shit load of chocolate, so fuck it.

You and I are no doubt of a slightly different political slant. The authors that I often read - like Mark Steyn - you probably don't. And I don't blame you. The guy is clearly fucking mad. But even loons like him land their darts on the bullseye often enough. In his book "After America" he brilliantly touches on something that's been raging at the back of my mind for about 7 years. It started when one of my left-leaning, female University lecturers told a fellow student that she'd be best off applying for a job in local government when she graduates, because the real world is 'too competitive'.
And it concluded with an anecdote Steyn recalls about how a plucky, dynamic and intelligent young schoolgirl petitions Barack Obama directly for (I presume), the federal government to do something about her leaky school roof.

This taps in fantastically well to 21st century disempowerment. Not just of women (although significantly of women), but of anyone who comes from less than optimum background (working class, non-white etc.). The consensus that the common person is too stupid, wretched and helpless to do anything beyond the scope of remote beaurocrats.

Which gets me to your next point ...

Quote:
An empowered feminist figure in a superhero story would, at the very least, have to have the same levels of agency, individuality, and inner life that people take for granted in male superheroes. In the last decade or so, movies have explored the inner struggles and dreams of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, and we've seen them step up and almost singlehandedly save the day. I can't imagine a female character getting the same treatment from Hollywood, though I'd love to be proven wrong.


This is true. But as you at least imply, and have probably said outright, superheroes reflect the social climate they exist in. So not only does Hollywood have to overcome the presumption that women can't save the world, it has to overcome the prevailing feeling that ordinary people are to passive and basically lobotomized to improve their lot.

Back to that incredible picture of Wonder Woman in the camp you posted previously; there is a myriad of reasons that picture won't be seen on screen. Too sexualised. Too strong. Too independent. Too much implied insult of the cultures of the other. Too American!!

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One thing writing feminist characters isn't about is having them get up on a soapbox and make speeches about girl power and being able to compete with the boy heroes--in fact, that's an awful trap that a lot of stories fall into when storytellers have no idea what to do with their feminist characters. Another trap is to make the female characters a weird combination of hypersexualized and super-antagonistic with men as a matter of course, which is something Frank Miller has done a lot in the years since he went crazy.


This is exactly where the last wave of feminism failed IMO.

I blame the Spice Girls

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:07 am
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
There's a whole complex of issues there. One of which is, if people want something, do they seize it for themselves or do they go after those in a position of power and influence to give it to them? My position on that is that you can't really do one without also doing the other. Unless you go full-on direct action--and I don't think you can anymore--there has to be a give-and-take between the people in power and the rest of us. It is a necessary component to get recognition of the importance of the issue in an official capacity.

Hollywood is a good example. The people responsible for greenlighting these movies are people who have their own idea of what sells, and it doesn't necessarily correspond to what the public wants. There's this ever-present fantasy that they'll listen if people vote with their wallets, but that isn't the whole truth. There needs to be a certain amount of social pressure on them, otherwise they'll keep cranking out shows by white guys, for white guys.

But there's also a great opportunity now with inexpensive filmmaking technology, where you no longer need to go through mainstream entertainment industry channels to make your movie. You're not going to have very much reach and you won't have the kind of technological firepower of a big studio production, but it is more feasible than ever to make whatever damn movie you want and get it out there. Nicole Holofcener is a good example of a filmmaker who has founded her career on these conditions.

I say, let's see more of both of those things. You can take a jaundiced view of the former and look at it as people needing other people to do things for them, but I can't think of any movement for social justice that ever succeeded without pestering the rich and powerful to get in on the good fight.

I guess the bottom line is, not everybody has to do everything, but everybody can do something.

(One of my favorite lines comes from, of all movies, Superman IV. In his big speech at the end, Superman says, "There will be peace when the people of the world want it so badly that their governments will have no choice but to give it to them." Sounds very hippie-drippy and heartwarming on the surface, but it's borderline radical if you really think about it.)

As for the Spice Girls... man, I'm glad that I was just a little too young to be plugged into that whole thing. I did go to high school in the era of Britney Spears, which was its own set of problems. I think that's when I started feeling insulted by the idea that all it takes to get people to buy things is to shove a hamfisted display of jailbait in their faces.

I'm partial to Esperanza Spalding--a terrific example of female independence and agency, but one who demonstrates it so thoroughly in her work that she doesn't need to put out posters of herself with slogans written on them. Her "girl power" isn't a product of advertising.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:45 am
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Ken wrote:
There's a whole complex of issues there. One of which is, if people want something, do they seize it for themselves or do they go after those in a position of power and influence to give it to them? My position on that is that you can't really do one without also doing the other. Unless you go full-on direct action--and I don't think you can anymore--there has to be a give-and-take between the people in power and the rest of us. It is a necessary component to get recognition of the importance of the issue in an official capacity.


I don't disagree with this. And even as someone who leans to the right himself in a number of respects, I recognise that the rich exist somewhat to keep the bottom of their feet snuggly on the tops of people's heads. It was ever thus. But what is less forgivable is that the anti-establishment (or the anti-establishment establishment, perhaps) claw a status of perpetual victimhood.

Quote:
Hollywood is a good example. The people responsible for greenlighting these movies are people who have their own idea of what sells, and it doesn't necessarily correspond to what the public wants. There's this ever-present fantasy that they'll listen if people vote with their wallets, but that isn't the whole truth. There needs to be a certain amount of social pressure on them, otherwise they'll keep cranking out shows by white guys, for white guys.


I don't entirely disagree with this either. Of course the machine feeds us shit, but, as you say ...

Quote:
But there's also a great opportunity now with inexpensive filmmaking technology, where you no longer need to go through mainstream entertainment industry channels to make your movie. You're not going to have very much reach and you won't have the kind of technological firepower of a big studio production, but it is more feasible than ever to make whatever damn movie you want and get it out there. Nicole Holofcener is a good example of a filmmaker who has founded her career on these conditions.


Here you sum up the precise solution. Power is wrestled, not through violence or begging, but legitimate revolution. For all its amorality, capitalism was an improvement on feudalism. But we didn't defeat the Landlords by begging them for concessions, we built machines that made them irrelevant. I'm aware of how I've led this into a discussion on politics, but there is a sequitur here.

Quote:
I say, let's see more of both of those things. You can take a jaundiced view of the former and look at it as people needing other people to do things for them, but I can't think of any movement for social justice that ever succeeded without pestering the rich and powerful to get in on the good fight.


Again, I agree. But I suppose people differ on where the balance is tipped.

Quote:
I guess the bottom line is, not everybody has to do everything, but everybody can do something.

(One of my favorite lines comes from, of all movies, Superman IV. In his big speech at the end, Superman says, "There will be peace when the people of the world want it so badly that their governments will have no choice but to give it to them." Sounds very hippie-drippy and heartwarming on the surface, but it's borderline radical if you really think about it.)


One weapon government have against their people, is the apathy of dependence of said people. Government do very well at stoking both these things.

Quote:
As for the Spice Girls... man, I'm glad that I was just a little too young to be plugged into that whole thing. I did go to high school in the era of Britney Spears, which was its own set of problems. I think that's when I started feeling insulted by the idea that all it takes to get people to buy things is to shove a hamfisted display of jailbait in their faces.


I remember the Spears-era of late 90s MTV like a cultural war that the ordinary decent person took a fucking hammering in. Which I guess takes us back to paragraphs 1 and 2 above.

Quote:
I'm partial to Esperanza Spalding--a terrific example of female independence and agency, but one who demonstrates it so thoroughly in her work that she doesn't need to put out posters of herself with slogans written on them. Her "girl power" isn't a product of advertising.


Black female musicians regular whoop the asses of their white contemporaries in this regard. They needed to to make it.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Personally I like Britney Spears and The Spice Girls.

Last semester I took a class called "Sex, Gender and Power" and it touched on many different issues and the history of feminism. It really opened my eyes to how many women and minorities still get unequal treatment in many areas today.

Anyways i'm sure Wonder Woman will ultimately turn out well in the film, but nevertheless I would like to see more female superheroes get movies made about them(Black Canary for one example).


Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:18 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
NotHughGrant wrote:
You may well wonder what the hell this has to do with Wonder Woman. But if Wonder Woman was robbed of her prowess by -

1. The post-War conservatism of the 50s; then
2. Subsequent waves of feminism; then
3. Spoilt brats who don't want their feelings provoked

then what exactly is an empowered feminist figure?

Although I suspect the new movie will avoid answering this question

Edit: I would argue something like the picture of Wondfer Woman at the refugee/prison camp you posted up earlier in this thread.


I assume you are referring to the image of Wonder Woman being surrounded by women wearing burkhas, aren't you? Well, I guess you might argue that Wonder Woman is aggressively showing and confirming her femininity while taking off the burkha, which could be considered a symbol of the oppression of women is some Islamic countries.

Yet I find it almost comical that you would consider the picture as an image of an empowered feminist figure. It depicts women who are concealing themselves under the burkha in order not to provoke sinful thoughts in men (which, to my knowledge, is the reasoning that women wear burkhas in some Islamic cultures). In other words: These women dress the way the dress because they are primarily viewed as objects of sexual desire. Then the picture shows a woman with a DD bra size wearing nothing but go go boots, a slightly fetishistic corsage and a pair of star-spangled hotpants. No, they're not hotpants - hotpants cover the bum, don't they? It's more like a G-stringy thing. What's more, Wonder Woman is actually disrobing in the picture. In short: The only woman not fully covered by a burkha is presented as an object of sexual desire. That's all not very feminist, is it?

I don't blame poor old Wonder Woman, though. Let's face it: Most superhero comic books are (and always have been) aimed at a readership of young, pimply male teenagers. That's why superheroines are wearing revealing outfits.


Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:14 am
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
It's a powerful, expressive woman, given sharp contrast by the powerless women around her.

What would you prefer she wear? A sexless, tastless, cock-envy designer suit?

No thanks

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Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:25 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Unke wrote:
Yet I find it almost comical that you would consider the picture as an image of an empowered feminist figure. It depicts women who are concealing themselves under the burkha in order not to provoke sinful thoughts in men (which, to my knowledge, is the reasoning that women wear burkhas in some Islamic cultures). In other words: These women dress the way the dress because they are primarily viewed as objects of sexual desire. Then the picture shows a woman with a DD bra size wearing nothing but go go boots, a slightly fetishistic corsage and a pair of star-spangled hotpants. No, they're not hotpants - hotpants cover the bum, don't they? It's more like a G-stringy thing. What's more, Wonder Woman is actually disrobing in the picture. In short: The only woman not fully covered by a burkha is presented as an object of sexual desire. That's all not very feminist, is it?

It's objectifying if you remove the panel from the context of the story, which is unfortunately the nature of things when posting an extract from a comic on an Internet forum.

There is nothing wrong with presenting a character as sexually desirable. It becomes problematic when that is their defining characteristic--when they are reduced to a set of appealing physical characteristics. A well-rounded female character with her own agency in the story and who owns her sexuality is an ideal example of feminism.

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Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Another WW gladiator style fan picture found on the net (attached)

It contains the two most important traits (in my view) the lasso of truth and her bracelets which traditionally she uses as shields against bullets but in the new 52 when she takes them off her strength and other power go in overdrive


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Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:58 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
A fan poster tweeted by Henry Cavill a few days ago 8-)


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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Batman turns 75 as Warner Prepares to unveil new caped crusader

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Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:13 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
The Onion did a great piece to commemorate Batman turning 75.

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Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:19 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Gal Gadot Talks Batman vs. Superman Workout Routine

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I just keep active—everything that's challenging me, everything that I feel like doing. It's not like I'm only doing TRX or Pilates. I do sports. I do cardio, but I don't like it as much. I'd rather do weights... I try to eat healthy, but sometimes though, I eat cheeseburgers. That's good for the soul. I make sure to balance everything out. I drink tons of water.


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Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:35 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Tao Okamoto just added in Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman
Her role is not yet specified though. I liked her in "The Wolverine"


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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Yes, along with Callan Mulvey and Holly Hunter. Mulvey made a strong impression in 300 sequel. Soon as I read they'd cast "an actor from 300 2" I knew exactly who it would be.


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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Zac Snyder recently spoke about Batman-Superman-WW movie among other things


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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
Ray Fisher to Play Cyborg
http://variety.com/2014/film/news/batma ... 201163390/


Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:47 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
new book by Batman producer Michael Uslan http://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/th ... atman.html


Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:51 pm
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Post Re: Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman now 2016
calvero wrote:


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Victor Stone or Cyborg, while not a major part in the Batman-Superman feature, is a member of the Justice League, and the role will become much more significant role as Warner and DC develop more films related to the Justice League universe, sources confirm.


Awesome :ugeek:


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