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American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal? 
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Post American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
Well I finally saw American Sniper and left disappointed. Not at the movie, mind you, which was fairy solid, but at the fact that I wasn't churning in indignation. I expected a jingoistic, rabidly flag-waving tract on how the letter U is best followed by S and then A. Instead, with the exception of the closing credits, I got a movie that was more in the mold of The Hurt Locker.

Both movies treat war as something that can become addicting and seem preferable to the staid life of a family man at home. Both movies refrain from criticizing America's mission in Iraq. And yet The Hurt Locker was embraced (beyond all rational measure, in my opinion) in liberal film intelligentsia circles and American Sniper is proving controversial.

So what's the big fucking deal about American Sniper? Yes The Hurt Locker was directed by a woman and American Sniper is directed by a proudly conservative man (though one, I might point out, whose recent output includes a film that supports euthanasia, a film that sympathizes with the Japanese in WWII, a film that urges ethnic tolerance and decries violence, and a movie about Nelson Mandela) but the gulf between them doesn't seem that great.

I can see some criticisms. The flag-waving at the end is a bit much and the movie's portrayal of Iraqis isn't very nuanced. But that seems enough to warrant a caveat line (e.g. "Though the film's politics are a bit simplistic...") not salvo after salvo of moral outrage. I just don't get it.

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Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:15 pm
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
from other thread:

nitrium wrote:
I often wonder how a film that reverses the viewpoint would play out. i.e. show Iraqi's killing Americans, via whatever means necessary to DEFEND their country from what they rightfully see as an INVASION... you know, EXACTLY like we would like to think we would do in that situation (see Red Dawn or Independence Day for example). Mainstream cinema never takes any risks - when the US is invaded it's Americans fighting for their country. When the US invades, it's Americans "liberating" a country. Come to think of it, independent films won't go down this road either, which is somewhat strange, since many moviegoers outside of the US probably wouldn't be particularly phased watching American soldiers getting killed (Middle Eastern, Russian, Chinese etc viewers might even clap and cheer, like errr, we do).


That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.

Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play. I didn't vote for this current President, but as my President I have to support him. I don't have to like his policies, but I have to respect his leadership. There are plenty of things that are wrong and need changing, but at the end of the day, I'm glad I live in America rather than any other country in the world. Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:21 pm
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
From other thread:

Sexual Chocolate wrote:
Give me the choice between patriotism and honesty, and I'll choose honesty every day of the week.


Are you talking about patriotism and honesty represented and reflected in films, or real life circumstance?


Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:22 pm
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
CruJones wrote:
nitrium wrote:
I often wonder how a film that reverses the viewpoint would play out. i.e. show Iraqi's killing Americans, via whatever means necessary to DEFEND their country from what they rightfully see as an INVASION... you know, EXACTLY like we would like to think we would do in that situation (see Red Dawn or Independence Day for example). Mainstream cinema never takes any risks - when the US is invaded it's Americans fighting for their country. When the US invades, it's Americans "liberating" a country. Come to think of it, independent films won't go down this road either, which is somewhat strange, since many moviegoers outside of the US probably wouldn't be particularly phased watching American soldiers getting killed (Middle Eastern, Russian, Chinese etc viewers might even clap and cheer, like errr, we do).

That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.
Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play.

See that's exactly right. Now put yourself on "the other side" (in so far as you can, which in your case might not be that far (which is fine)). That is what "the other side" is getting. ALL the time. A film made from the traditional "enemy" viewpoint would obviously be widely unpopular in America (as I suspect something like American Sniper most likely is for Iraqi's), but I would personally find it a somewhat interesting experiment to see how American's would react to a film when the shoe is on the other foot. Needless to say I am not American, so it wouldn't effect me in the same way...


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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
Quote:
That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.

Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play. I didn't vote for this current President, but as my President I have to support him. I don't have to like his policies, but I have to respect his leadership. There are plenty of things that are wrong and need changing, but at the end of the day, I'm glad I live in America rather than any other country in the world. Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


I don't often see eye to eye with CruJones, but I applaud this post and feel pretty much the same. Because it's true, why don't people just move to Iraq or Afghanistan? Stop taking advantage of the privileges of our country that so many soldiers have died to defend. I doubt you would have broached such topics to Chris Kyle's face had you ever met in person, right? Better yet, tell it to the thousands of people lined up on the freeway in the stock footage at the end of the movie. We should thank God that our country has good soldiers and that we're able to live the way we live.

I have the uneasy feeling that the "controversy" of this movie comes from conservative America having such a large influence on the box office instead of the usual superhero teenagers being the only influence, period.

Iraqis want a movie made for them, let them produce it for themselves, yeah? Oh wait, I forgot they have a great body of work at bestgore.com.


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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.

Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play. I didn't vote for this current President, but as my President I have to support him. I don't have to like his policies, but I have to respect his leadership. There are plenty of things that are wrong and need changing, but at the end of the day, I'm glad I live in America rather than any other country in the world. Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


I don't often see eye to eye with CruJones, but I applaud this post and feel pretty much the same. Because it's true, why don't people just move to Iraq or Afghanistan? Stop taking advantage of the privileges of our country that so many soldiers have died to defend. I doubt you would have broached such topics to Chris Kyle's face had you ever met in person, right? Better yet, tell it to the thousands of people lined up on the freeway in the stock footage at the end of the movie. We should thank God that our country has good soldiers and that we're able to live the way we live.

I have the uneasy feeling that the "controversy" of this movie comes from conservative America having such a large influence on the box office instead of the usual superhero teenagers being the only influence, period.

Iraqis want a movie made for them, let them produce it for themselves, yeah? Oh wait, I forgot they have a great body of work at bestgore.com.


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Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:53 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
CruJones wrote:
from other thread:

nitrium wrote:
I often wonder how a film that reverses the viewpoint would play out. i.e. show Iraqi's killing Americans, via whatever means necessary to DEFEND their country from what they rightfully see as an INVASION... you know, EXACTLY like we would like to think we would do in that situation (see Red Dawn or Independence Day for example). Mainstream cinema never takes any risks - when the US is invaded it's Americans fighting for their country. When the US invades, it's Americans "liberating" a country. Come to think of it, independent films won't go down this road either, which is somewhat strange, since many moviegoers outside of the US probably wouldn't be particularly phased watching American soldiers getting killed (Middle Eastern, Russian, Chinese etc viewers might even clap and cheer, like errr, we do).


That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.

Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play. I didn't vote for this current President, but as my President I have to support him. I don't have to like his policies, but I have to respect his leadership. There are plenty of things that are wrong and need changing, but at the end of the day, I'm glad I live in America rather than any other country in the world. Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.

Well there was one film that kinda sorta went down that route called Valley of the Wolves, it had some really negative portrayals of American soldiers with the foreigners being presented as heroic for the most part, Billy Zane got a lot of flak for appearing in that film.


Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:51 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
nitrium wrote:
CruJones wrote:
nitrium wrote:
I often wonder how a film that reverses the viewpoint would play out. i.e. show Iraqi's killing Americans, via whatever means necessary to DEFEND their country from what they rightfully see as an INVASION... you know, EXACTLY like we would like to think we would do in that situation (see Red Dawn or Independence Day for example). Mainstream cinema never takes any risks - when the US is invaded it's Americans fighting for their country. When the US invades, it's Americans "liberating" a country. Come to think of it, independent films won't go down this road either, which is somewhat strange, since many moviegoers outside of the US probably wouldn't be particularly phased watching American soldiers getting killed (Middle Eastern, Russian, Chinese etc viewers might even clap and cheer, like errr, we do).

That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.
Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play.
Well we already had a film about a then-current U.S. president being assassinated(Death of a President) so who knows?
See that's exactly right. Now put yourself on "the other side" (in so far as you can, which in your case might not be that far (which is fine)). That is what "the other side" is getting. ALL the time. A film made from the traditional "enemy" viewpoint would obviously be widely unpopular in America (as I suspect something like American Sniper most likely is for Iraqi's), but I would personally find it a somewhat interesting experiment to see how American's would react to a film when the shoe is on the other foot. Needless to say I am not American, so it wouldn't effect me in the same way...


Last edited by Vexer on Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:53 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
CruJones wrote:
Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


Yes, because caring about the lives of people who aren't part of your country is so anti-American. There are no innocent bystanders in countries we're fighting with or have recently fought against in the Middle East. Why should you care? Good people died so you could feign ignorant acceptance of foreign deaths. If you were so worried about the victims of the earthquake/tsunami in Japan then why not move there? The only reason we care about ISIS is because they've killed Americans and threaten our freedom, not the thousands of lives they're affecting in the Middle East :roll:

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:31 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
CruJones wrote:
from other thread:

nitrium wrote:
I often wonder how a film that reverses the viewpoint would play out. i.e. show Iraqi's killing Americans, via whatever means necessary to DEFEND their country from what they rightfully see as an INVASION... you know, EXACTLY like we would like to think we would do in that situation (see Red Dawn or Independence Day for example). Mainstream cinema never takes any risks - when the US is invaded it's Americans fighting for their country. When the US invades, it's Americans "liberating" a country. Come to think of it, independent films won't go down this road either, which is somewhat strange, since many moviegoers outside of the US probably wouldn't be particularly phased watching American soldiers getting killed (Middle Eastern, Russian, Chinese etc viewers might even clap and cheer, like errr, we do).


That film would bomb at the box office...actually it probably wouldn't. It would polarize the film going community into two factions The Michael Moore faction and the Rush Limbaugh faction.

Personally I wouldn't care for that movie. I'm an American, and stand behind America's play. I didn't vote for this current President, but as my President I have to support him. I don't have to like his policies, but I have to respect his leadership. There are plenty of things that are wrong and need changing, but at the end of the day, I'm glad I live in America rather than any other country in the world. Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


Well to a certain degree, there WAS that other movie, and Eastwood directed it: Letters from Iwo Jima.

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:29 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
MGamesCook wrote:
I don't often see eye to eye with CruJones, but I applaud this post and feel pretty much the same. Because it's true, why don't people just move to Iraq or Afghanistan? Stop taking advantage of the privileges of our country that so many soldiers have died to defend. I doubt you would have broached such topics to Chris Kyle's face had you ever met in person, right? Better yet, tell it to the thousands of people lined up on the freeway in the stock footage at the end of the movie. We should thank God that our country has good soldiers and that we're able to live the way we live.


Again, I feel uneasy with this...this attitude that anyone who dares to criticize the policies of our military is un-American and should go live somewhere else. I call bullshit; as an American I reserve the right to call out any government agency if I disagree with their actions. That includes the military.

Personally, I find myself more in line with a sentiment expressed by Dwight Eisenhower: "War is mankind's most tragic and stupid folly; to seek or advise its deliberate provocation is a black crime against all men."

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Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:18 am
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
I well remember being called a traitor and not a "real" American because I opposed the (2nd) Iraq War, especially since I was privy to some of the lies and deceptions that were used to justify our actions. I was also not "allowed" to speak on the subject because I live in Germany. Obviously I can't be a "real" American since I choose not to live there. Some of the abuse I was subjected to was pretty crazy. Being threatened to be reported to the FBI, etc. Given, it was mostly on internet forums, but still...

It didn't matter that I served for a number of years (which is why I'm in Germany in the first place), or am myself a war veteran (1st Gulf War), that just made it worse in many people's eyes apparantly, since I was against the party line...


Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:29 pm
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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
JJoshay wrote:
CruJones wrote:
Everybody that is sooooo sympathetic to Afghanistan or Iraq, or the middle east...do me a favor and move over there, renounce your American citizenship, and lead a new life.


Yes, because caring about the lives of people who aren't part of your country is so anti-American. There are no innocent bystanders in countries we're fighting with or have recently fought against in the Middle East. Why should you care? Good people died so you could feign ignorant acceptance of foreign deaths. If you were so worried about the victims of the earthquake/tsunami in Japan then why not move there? The only reason we care about ISIS is because they've killed Americans and threaten our freedom, not the thousands of lives they're affecting in the Middle East :roll:


Is Japan harboring any known world terrorist organizations? If they are then fuck them too. Why are you comparing a country's national tragedy to an ongoing war on terror? I didn't move over there, but plenty of Americans did go over there to help with the effort and I donated a small amount. It wasn't much, but maybe it helped.

There are plenty of innocent bystanders, but how are we to find and destroy the bad? Are we to let them keep going on, hide, and do whatever they want to do? And if there are so many good, wholesome, caring people in those countries, why don't they stand up to evil?


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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
Again, I feel uneasy with this...this attitude that anyone who dares to criticize the policies of our military is un-American and should go live somewhere else. I call bullshit; as an American I reserve the right to call out any government agency if I disagree with their actions. That includes the military.


You can criticize the policies of our government and thus military; I do it all of the time (mostly it's to do with social, economic, and tax policies). But I don't for one second criticize any individual who has died or is willing to fight and die because he believes in our country and its founding ideologies. Soldiers need our support, not comedians making jokes and criticizing what they are fighting for.

I'm not brave enough to join the military, go overseas, and risk my life. It seems neither are you. Because of that, the only thing you should open your mouth to say to any solider is, "From the bottom of my heart, thank you."

You can criticize your government all day long and yell "we shouldn't be there!" But don't you dare lay that on soldiers' feet.


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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
You won't find me doing any kind of blanket condemnation of our soldiers. I don't think it is productive, since it is not the soldiers who make the policy. I never knew Chris Kyle on any kind of level, so I won't say his approach to the war was wrong. If he believed he was fighting for a good cause, it was his right to do so.

Would I have gone over to fight in Iraq? No, because we had no business being over there. Iraq was a war to secure profits for Halliburton, Exxon/Mobil, BP, Blackwater, and who knows who else. We weren't fighting for anyone's freedoms, least of all the Iraqis. But this does beg the question of whether the acts of individual soldiers are justified in an unjust war. Had American Sniper pursued that angle it would have been a very interesting film. Alas, it did not.

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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
Once again, I'm reminded of South Park. They made a great episode (their 100th in fact) during the early part of the War in Iraq. "If you don't like America then you can get out....." :lol:

As for the movie, what's really amazing to me is that at the rate it's going, this could end up the highest grossing movie of 2014 (originally released in NY/LA only on Dec 25, so it counts). An R-rated movie based on a real person beating out a Marvel property (Guardians) and a YA adaptation (Mockingjay Part 1)? That's astonishing and a potential game-changer. It runs counter to everything we understand. Like I said, I don't think the movie is anywhere close to one of the year's best, but I'll gladly watch it again over those other two.

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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
Quote:
As for the movie, what's really amazing to me is that at the rate it's going, this could end up the highest grossing movie of 2014 (originally released in NY/LA only on Dec 25, so it counts). An R-rated movie based on a real person beating out a Marvel property (Guardians) and a YA adaptation (Mockingjay Part 1)? That's astonishing and a potential game-changer. It runs counter to everything we understand. Like I said, I don't think the movie is anywhere close to one of the year's best, but I'll gladly watch it again over those other two.


I hope so, and it's definitely an exciting potential game-changer on a number of levels. For one thing, it's not a sequel, nor is it getting a sequel. But I also think it's more than simply a matter of patriotism, though that is likely the biggest factor. I think perhaps people have responded to its seriousness and realism, which was so refreshing as a contrast to CGI-driven escapism.


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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
KWRoss wrote:
Once again, I'm reminded of South Park. They made a great episode (their 100th in fact) during the early part of the War in Iraq. "If you don't like America then you can get out....." :lol:



This pisses me off a great deal. It's a gigantic logical fallacy. Do you tell your lover that if he/she truly loves you, she can't criticize anything about you? "If you don't like me, then leave this relationship!"

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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
JamesKunz wrote:
KWRoss wrote:
Once again, I'm reminded of South Park. They made a great episode (their 100th in fact) during the early part of the War in Iraq. "If you don't like America then you can get out....." :lol:

This pisses me off a great deal. It's a gigantic logical fallacy. Do you tell your lover that if he/she truly loves you, she can't criticize anything about you? "If you don't like me, then leave this relationship!"

I'm pretty sure that is (among other things) what this SP episode was getting at. You're not a fan of the show I take it, or you would realise this?
"Benjamin Franklin shows up and announces that he believes the new country must not seem to be a war-monger to the rest of the world, but at the same time, it cannot appear to be weak either. Therefore, it must go to war, but allow protests. The United States will go to war on one hand, and use protest to oppose the war on the other. He refers to this as "saying one thing and doing another". One member refers to this as "having our cake and eating it too". "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_a_Little_Bit_Country

I really hate to break this to all the American's here, but when it comes to "your" foreign policy as observed by just about anyone outside of the US, it really does all seriously looks like one giant logical fallacy.


Last edited by nitrium on Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: American Sniper: what's the big ****ing deal?
nitrium wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
KWRoss wrote:
Once again, I'm reminded of South Park. They made a great episode (their 100th in fact) during the early part of the War in Iraq. "If you don't like America then you can get out....." :lol:

This pisses me off a great deal. It's a gigantic logical fallacy. Do you tell your lover that if he/she truly loves you, she can't criticize anything about you? "If you don't like me, then leave this relationship!"

I'm pretty sure that is (among other things) what this SP episode was getting at. You're not a fan of the show I take it, or you would realise this?
"Benjamin Franklin shows up and announces that he believes the new country must not seem to be a war-monger to the rest of the world, but at the same time, it cannot appear to be weak either. Therefore, it must go to war, but allow protests. The United States will go to war on one hand, and use protest to oppose the war on the other. He refers to this as "saying one thing and doing another". One member refers to this as "having our cake and eating it too". "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_a_Little_Bit_Country

I really hate to break this to all the American's here, but when it comes to "your" foreign policy as observed by just anyone outside of the US, it really does all seriously looks like one giant logical fallacy.


I probably actually did watch this back in 2003, but since it was 12 years ago, I forgive me.

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