Discussion of movies and ReelThoughts topics

It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:26 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Bond at His Best 
Author Message
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:04 am
Posts: 2724
Location: Lancashire, England.
Post Re: Bond at His Best
It's the underrating of Dalton that bothers me. Opinion of him here is dictated by shallow tabloid stupidity.

He is a bona fida great actor

_________________
... because I'm a wild animal


Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:38 pm
Profile
Assistant Second Unit Director

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:54 am
Posts: 69
Post Re: Bond at His Best
The wife and I are working our way through the entire series. Before now, I'd only seen the Brosnans, Casino Royale, Skyfall, and Goldfinger.

Up to this point I was having a hard time deciding whether From Russia With Love or Goldfinger was the best so far. It's moot now, because we just finished On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and... man, that's the one. I was not prepared for how awesome it was. Way above any of the others so far. Every single thing clicks. It's a great spy story. A perfectly paced action movie. With a solid bad guy. And well shot.

I even liked Lazenby. There's a low-key humor to his performance that worked really well for me.

I have a hard time seeing any of the Roger Moores topping it. I know none of the Brosnans do. And even Skyfall and Casino Royale I don't think quite match it.

OHMSS is maybe the only one so far that doesn't have a single moment that made me shake my head a little. Even Skyfall has the "he hacked us!" silliness.


Last edited by Bones on Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:28 pm
Profile
Assistant Second Unit Director

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:54 am
Posts: 69
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Ken wrote:
I have mixed feelings about Goldfinger. It stands with the other best Bonds as a great adventure story, but it's sort of like season 8 of The Simpsons. As good as it is, you can see the problematic elements starting to creep in--not that they were problematic at the time, but they were disastrous as the series relied on them more and more. The stuff that makes you laugh in Goldfinger is the same stuff that makes you cringe in later movies.

That's also my one reservation with From Russia With Love. For all the great spy stuff--like everything that happens on the train--the SPECTRE stuff is a little disconcerting. I realize it's a bit like complaining that "Shakespeare uses so many cliches!"--but there's quite a bit in the Blofeld scenes that you see later in Austin Powers, Inspector Gadget, etc.


Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:39 pm
Profile
Assistant Director
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:35 pm
Posts: 806
Location: Puerto Rico
Post Re: Bond at His Best
I haven't seen all, and I don't remember most of the Roger Moore ones. But out of what I've seen and remember, From Russia with Love is my favorite.

_________________
"Get busy living, or get busy dying"

Visit my site: Thief12 profile


Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:22 pm
Profile WWW
Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 pm
Posts: 1343
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Bones wrote:
I even liked Lazenby. There's a low-key humor to his performance that worked really well for me.

Lazenby was definitely a diamond in the rough who likely would've improved had he stayed on. I can't help but think he might've made "Diamonds Are Forever" more interesting, as opposed to the Connery-on-autopilot effort we got instead. :?


Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:42 am
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:26 pm
Posts: 2157
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Part of the trouble with Lazenby, I think, is that nobody realized at the time that there was a way to do it other than how Connery did it. People expected Connery, Lazenby was probably chosen to be like Connery and be directed like Connery, and Lazenby himself maybe even tried to be Connery. We never got to see a true Lazenby take on Bond because what we got was a Lazenby take on Sean Connery.

People can say what they will about Roger Moore, but he was the first guy to say "I can't be Sean Connery, so I'm going to play the role a new way." He established the tradition of each Bond actor having his own ideas and behaviors about the character.

One interesting thing about the Dalton era, particularly Licence To Kill, is that it's very similar in tone to the Craig films, but wasn't received nearly as well. Part of the issue is that Licence isn't plotted nearly as tightly as Casino Royale or Skyfall, but part of it is the simple fact of timing. Dalton's movies arrived on the heels of the significantly more lighthearted Moore movies, which--for better or worse--defined Bond in the eyes of the audience at the time. While the serious, back-to-basics strategy has unquestionably worked for Craig, auds weren't ready for it in the late 1980s. The Brosnan era was necessary as a buffer, marrying Moore's silliness with some token nods to seriousness that would prefigure the Craig Bond films. It gave people time to get over the Cold War world domination plots and sci-fi antics, and it primed them for something a little more like the hard-hearted spy adventuring originally laid out by Ian Fleming.

_________________
The temptation is to like what you should like--not what you do like... another temptation is to come up with an interesting reason for liking it that may not actually be the reason you like it.


Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:38 pm
Profile
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Ken wrote:
Part of the trouble with Lazenby, I think, is that nobody realized at the time that there was a way to do it other than how Connery did it. People expected Connery, Lazenby was probably chosen to be like Connery and be directed like Connery, and Lazenby himself maybe even tried to be Connery. We never got to see a true Lazenby take on Bond because what we got was a Lazenby take on Sean Connery.


Couldn't agree more. But since Lazenby was picked as a Connery copycat, perhaps his own take on Bond would have been even worse. He wasn't exactly an accomplished actor at the time....

And yep: I agree: Dalton was dealt a "dead hand", he had to "lose the game" - audiences indeed weren't ready for him. He is very convincing as a great mixture of charisma, menace yet being human and vulnerable. Not to mention that Dalton is a great actor period.


Last edited by Threeperf35 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:01 pm
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Darn, clicked on the wrong button again. Sorry: redundant post again..... :-/


Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:01 pm
Producer

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:44 pm
Posts: 2011
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Quote:
Lazenby was definitely a diamond in the rough who likely would've improved had he stayed on. I can't help but think he might've made "Diamonds Are Forever" more interesting, as opposed to the Connery-on-autopilot effort we got instead.


Yeah, you know Diamonds Are Forever is almost unbelievably bad until you realize that the sleazy cruddiness is an intentional tonal choice. Then, for me at least, it becomes just reasonably bad. I suppose the same is true of Goldeneye; it was of a specific time and mindset which is now outdated, but man it feels cruddy. Campbell seems to be in Green Lantern mode. I really admire Roger Moore for the reasons Ken stated, and I think he's the one who really defines his life by Bond, maybe even more than Connery. Lazenby has his moments. Telly Savalas is also pretty forgettable, but he's effective while you watch.

Bond movies can only be loved with warts intact. Most of them have the same flaws, basically, it's just a question of how annoying they happen to be in each individual case.


Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:27 pm
Profile
Producer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:04 am
Posts: 2724
Location: Lancashire, England.
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Ken wrote:
Part of the trouble with Lazenby, I think, is that nobody realized at the time that there was a way to do it other than how Connery did it. People expected Connery, Lazenby was probably chosen to be like Connery and be directed like Connery, and Lazenby himself maybe even tried to be Connery. We never got to see a true Lazenby take on Bond because what we got was a Lazenby take on Sean Connery.

People can say what they will about Roger Moore, but he was the first guy to say "I can't be Sean Connery, so I'm going to play the role a new way." He established the tradition of each Bond actor having his own ideas and behaviors about the character.

One interesting thing about the Dalton era, particularly Licence To Kill, is that it's very similar in tone to the Craig films, but wasn't received nearly as well. Part of the issue is that Licence isn't plotted nearly as tightly as Casino Royale or Skyfall, but part of it is the simple fact of timing. Dalton's movies arrived on the heels of the significantly more lighthearted Moore movies, which--for better or worse--defined Bond in the eyes of the audience at the time. While the serious, back-to-basics strategy has unquestionably worked for Craig, auds weren't ready for it in the late 1980s. The Brosnan era was necessary as a buffer, marrying Moore's silliness with some token nods to seriousness that would prefigure the Craig Bond films. It gave people time to get over the Cold War world domination plots and sci-fi antics, and it primed them for something a little more like the hard-hearted spy adventuring originally laid out by Ian Fleming.


I think perhaps with Dalton's look, people were half-expecting Moore part deux. Whereas Craig's whole vibe was a divorce from the previous.

_________________
... because I'm a wild animal


Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:26 am
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3993
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: Bond at His Best
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
Lazenby was definitely a diamond in the rough who likely would've improved had he stayed on. I can't help but think he might've made "Diamonds Are Forever" more interesting, as opposed to the Connery-on-autopilot effort we got instead.


Yeah, you know Diamonds Are Forever is almost unbelievably bad until you realize that the sleazy cruddiness is an intentional tonal choice. Then, for me at least, it becomes just reasonably bad. I suppose the same is true of Goldeneye; it was of a specific time and mindset which is now outdated, but man it feels cruddy. Campbell seems to be in Green Lantern mode. I really admire Roger Moore for the reasons Ken stated, and I think he's the one who really defines his life by Bond, maybe even more than Connery. Lazenby has his moments. Telly Savalas is also pretty forgettable, but he's effective while you watch.

Bond movies can only be loved with warts intact. Most of them have the same flaws, basically, it's just a question of how annoying they happen to be in each individual case.

Agreed on Diamonds but I love Goldeneye. For me the film that truly represents the very worst of Bond is "Man With The Golden Gun", that film turned Bond into a complete joke, with it's terrible humor, the most annoying and useless Bond girl in the series, and the worst ending of the series(Bond chasing a midget and stuffing him into a briefcase? Seriously? who thought that would be a good ending? :roll: )


Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:58 am
Profile
Cinematographer

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:19 pm
Posts: 665
Post Re: Bond at His Best
I'm in with the Goldfinger crowd. I enjoyed On Her Majesty's Secret Service, but Lazenby pulled the movie down to the middle for me. I like Moore, Dalton, and Brosnan as Bond but got quite bored with continuity and haven't seen anything since Goldeneye. Regretting not catching Skyfall on the big screen and will try to catch up with Bond now that I've had this good break.


Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:48 am
Profile
Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 1616
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Vexer wrote:
For me the film that truly represents the very worst of Bond is "Man With The Golden Gun", that film turned Bond into a complete joke, with it's terrible humor, the most annoying and useless Bond girl in the series, and the worst ending of the series(Bond chasing a midget and stuffing him into a briefcase? Seriously? who thought that would be a good ending? )


Can't really argue with this. While Moonraker is the all-time worst, MWTGG is a close second for the reasons cited. The lowest list is as follows:

1: Moonraker
2: Man WIth The Golden Gun
3: Die Another Day
4: View To A Kill

_________________
This ain't a city council meeting you know-Joe Cabot

Cinema is a matter of what's in the frame and what's out-Martin Scorsese.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1347771599


Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:22 am
Profile
Producer

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:44 pm
Posts: 2011
Post Re: Bond at His Best
I find that even the bad Bond movies are fun in bits and pieces. Sitting through them all the way through is what can be a challenge. Golden Gun has individual scenes that I like; the hand to hand fights, the Karate school, Sheriff Pepper. The last 40 minutes of Golden Gun is almost impossible to sit through though. Ditto for the last 40 minutes of many lesser Bond films. Tomorrow Never Dies it's like, how many goddamn times does the stealth ship have to blow up before they call it a day? At least the submarine climax of World is Not Enough is reasonably succinct. And The Living Daylights is about three years too long once they get out into the desert.


Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:09 pm
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3993
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: Bond at His Best
MGamesCook wrote:
I find that even the bad Bond movies are fun in bits and pieces. Sitting through them all the way through is what can be a challenge. Golden Gun has individual scenes that I like; the hand to hand fights, the Karate school, Sheriff Pepper. The last 40 minutes of Golden Gun is almost impossible to sit through though. Ditto for the last 40 minutes of many lesser Bond films. Tomorrow Never Dies it's like, how many goddamn times does the stealth ship have to blow up before they call it a day? At least the submarine climax of World is Not Enough is reasonably succinct. And The Living Daylights is about three years too long once they get out into the desert.

You're the first person i've met that actually liked Sheriff Pepper, for me he is without a question the single WORST character in the entire franchise, I can just imagine the pitch for him, "let's throw in a hi-larious bumbling racist who contributes absolutely nothing to the plot!"

I can understand your point about overlong climaxes in the series though, while I didn't have a problem with the finales of TLD and TND, the climax of Thunderball was definitely way too goddamn long for it's own good, it nearly put me to sleep.


Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:30 pm
Profile
Producer

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:44 pm
Posts: 2011
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Quote:
You're the first person i've met that actually liked Sheriff Pepper, for me he is without a question the single WORST character in the entire franchise, I can just imagine the pitch for him, "let's throw in a hi-larious bumbling racist who contributes absolutely nothing to the plot!"


I laugh at him in Golden Gun. I prefer him to some other characters I can think of. A few of the Felix Leiters are terrible (Diamonds, Daylights). Joe Don Baker is to me more annoying in both of the roles he played. I'd also say Michael Madsen in Die Another Day is worse. Oh, and Willard White in Diamonds.


Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:39 pm
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3993
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: Bond at His Best
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
You're the first person i've met that actually liked Sheriff Pepper, for me he is without a question the single WORST character in the entire franchise, I can just imagine the pitch for him, "let's throw in a hi-larious bumbling racist who contributes absolutely nothing to the plot!"


I laugh at him in Golden Gun. I prefer him to some other characters I can think of. A few of the Felix Leiters are terrible (Diamonds, Daylights). Joe Don Baker is to me more annoying in both of the roles he played. I'd also say Michael Madsen in Die Another Day is worse. Oh, and Willard White in Diamonds.

I thought Baker was OK and I like Madsen in just about anything as he's one of my character actors, I hated Peper because I just don't find a guy being racist for no reason the least bit funny. I agree that White was pretty bad too, but at least he was only in one film.


Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:08 pm
Profile
Second Unit Director

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:49 pm
Posts: 230
Post Re: Bond at His Best
The only Bond film that I've seen that I actually disliked was A View to a Kill, though some of the other lesser ones were pretty forgettable. You just have to look at them as dumb fun, nothing more, and you can enjoy them.

As far as the best, it would either be Goldfinger or On Her Majesty's Secret Service for me.


Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:57 am
Profile
Producer

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:44 pm
Posts: 2011
Post Re: Bond at His Best
Quote:
You just have to look at them as dumb fun, nothing more, and you can enjoy them.


I agree, I think that applies to even the best Bond movies. I don't think there's ever a point where you're truly meant to take the characters and situations 100% seriously. There's always a self-awareness...except at really low points.


Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:01 am
Profile
Auteur
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:02 pm
Posts: 3993
Location: Zion, IL
Post Re: Bond at His Best
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
You just have to look at them as dumb fun, nothing more, and you can enjoy them.


I agree, I think that applies to even the best Bond movies. I don't think there's ever a point where you're truly meant to take the characters and situations 100% seriously. There's always a self-awareness...except at really low points.

The problem with films like Golden Gun and Live And Let Die, is they have too much "dumb" and very little "fun"


Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:16 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.
Translated by Xaphos © 2007, 2008, 2009 phpBB.fr