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The Dark Knight Rises 
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Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Miscellaneopolan wrote:
I think it's too early to call the themes in The Dark Knight Rises "impressive," but yeah, it looks like they're there. Bane seems to be leading an army of the socially disenfranchised (prisoners, terrorists, etc...) against the socially privileged (Bruce Wayne and friends). People have pointed out the connections to the Occupy movement and I agree with them. It's a more violent version of the Occupy movement, sure, but this is an action movie. Catwoman lays it on pretty thick: "You're all gonna wonder how you lived so large and left so little for the rest of us." It looks like the movie takes the phrase "class warfare" pretty literally.

I also agree that the themes aren't particularly subtle. But I don't care. At least they're present, which is more than can be said of most movies. The Dark Knight was thematically upfront too. Good Lord, the Joker came right out and said that he was an agent of chaos. It doesn't get much more obvious than that, but it was still interesting. When you have characters as larger-than-life than these, it probably doesn't pay to be subtle. Why not use the built-in iconography? Batman is Order. The Joker is Chaos. Bane is the vengeance of the disenfranchised. Catwoman is... I dunno, hot; we'll see. The themes in these movies may not be particularly deep, but they're meaty enough to hold my interest. I expect that to continue.


The problem is, that just isn't true, not even of most Hollywood movies. Even lesser material like Green Lantern had a theme: overcoming fear vs. embracing it. Or Thor: learning humility. Both instances, the theme was subtler than in The Dark Knight. What about Planet of the Apes? That thing is loaded out the wazoo with themes, such as recklessness, ethnocentricity, familial obligation, etc. There are other examples too, but these alone are enough to prove that Nolan has nothing special up his sleeve in the realm of theme.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:59 pm
Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Most stories have themes. Sometimes they're not particularly original or interesting themes, but they do have them. Die Hard has themes. Indiana Jones has themes. Hot Tub Time Machine has themes.

What bugged me about the themes in The Dark Knight (and, to a much lesser extent, Batman Begins) is twofold: one, that the movie puts the themes all over the place in big neon signs. It's not content to simply unfold and allow the themes to grow organically from the material. It forces them in through dialogue and contrived metaphors. I personally find that to be very stifling in movies.

Two, that for all its bloviating about terror, chaos, and human nature, The Dark Knight tends to introduce ideas and not do much with them beyond that. The closest thing we get to a resolution for these threads is the sequence with the two boats. It does some interesting stuff with the way people might behave in that situation, but I don't think it's quite the big profound statement about the goodness of humanity that the movie is driving at.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:31 pm
Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Ken wrote:
Most stories have themes. Sometimes they're not particularly original or interesting themes, but they do have them. Die Hard has themes. Indiana Jones has themes. Hot Tub Time Machine has themes.

What bugged me about the themes in The Dark Knight (and, to a much lesser extent, Batman Begins) is twofold: one, that the movie puts the themes all over the place in big neon signs. It's not content to simply unfold and allow the themes to grow organically from the material. It forces them in through dialogue and contrived metaphors. I personally find that to be very stifling in movies.

Two, that for all its bloviating about terror, chaos, and human nature, The Dark Knight tends to introduce ideas and not do much with them beyond that. The closest thing we get to a resolution for these threads is the sequence with the two boats. It does some interesting stuff with the way people might behave in that situation, but I don't think it's quite the big profound statement about the goodness of humanity that the movie is driving at.


All very true, and I think a lot of people would agree with your points. Now if only those same people would see that the faults you point out are more than enough to make a film bad, or at least thematically inferior to every one of the examples you point out. People say, Oh, but I enjoy it in spite of those faults, but that just sounds dishonest to me. Refusing to acknowledge faults which you know to be true is dishonest. Because the truth is, there are so many films out there, including big Hollywood films, that do not have those faults. You therefore have no logical reason to think Dark Knight is better.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:04 pm
Assistant Second Unit Director

Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:56 pm
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Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
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All very true, and I think a lot of people would agree with your points. Now if only those same people would see that the faults you point out are more than enough to make a film bad, or at least thematically inferior to every one of the examples you point out. People say, Oh, but I enjoy it in spite of those faults, but that just sounds dishonest to me. Refusing to acknowledge faults which you know to be true is dishonest. Because the truth is, there are so many films out there, including big Hollywood films, that do not have those faults. You therefore have no logical reason to think Dark Knight is better.


Interesting view. I think the themes in Thor and Green Lantern were just as obviously stated as in Dark Knight. However, I do think they were delivered with less pomp, so I can see how that can be viewed as a plus.

I am one that has mentioned I recognize the flaws in Dark Knight. The flaws with editing being one, and also being a little heavy handed in the theme department. However, after multiple viewings, the film still grips me and I still enjoy it on a visceral and mental level. The flaws simply don't bother me, and that is me being honest.

To put it another way, I don't agree that the flaws were that big of a deal in a summer blockbuster. The theme I enjoyed the most, about having to become dark, or be viewed as evil, in order to fight evil, is handled well. I even enjoyed Gordon's speech at the end that basically summarizes that theme in a paragraph. Did it have to be said? No. But I get pumped every time I hear it, maybe just because it was well said (written.)

So, I definitely agree Dark Knight is not a "Great" movie. But it is a movie I enjoy greatly, even when I try to like it less after noticing the flaws others have pointed out to me.


Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:40 pm
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Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I enjoy The Dark Knight in spite of its faults. That's me being honest. I enjoy it moderately, because there are elements I like and elements I don't. That is the case with most movies movies. Not many movies have The Dark Knight's particular set of flaws, but the vast majority of movies have their own particular sets of flaws.

What makes The Dark Knight more worthy of discussion is the simple fact that a lot of people have proclaimed it to be a great movie, which makes the less enthusiastic opinions stand out in much sharper relief. Nobody would give a crap if someone came here and started picking over the flaws of Thor or The Green Lantern. But those two movies don't have the place in our collective pop-consciousness that The Dark Knight has been given. Whether deservedly or not, The Dark Knight is a big deal.

It is a film that I liked less upon reflection, which is unfortunate. My personal rubric for a truly great movie is the opposite. It should only improve with hindsight. My verdict is that it is a decent entertainment with some really standout elements, but there's a lot of stuff holding it back.


Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:22 pm
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Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:55 pm
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Post Re: The Dark Knight Rises
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Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:25 pm
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