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Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love? 
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
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Okay cool, I think I'm getting it? Moonraker knew it was a bit of a joke, was set in it's own world and was made to be not taken seriously. That's where The Dark Knight get's it wrong. It was meant to be taken seriously, maybe as seriously as The Godfather. Actually, that's ridiculous, let's say as seriously as Skyfall.

Could someone please explain to me why I shouldn't analyze Skyfall to death, and rip apart every scene like I should with The Dark Knight? Kunz mentioned above he had a problem with the way The Joker escaped from his cell. Jesus. What were you thinking when Bond got shot in the chest, fell a hundred feet, then off a waterfall another fifty (or so) feet to be shown awake alive in an Asian retreat? How did he get there? It doesn't make much sense. He'd be dead in the first ten minutes of the film. Everything after that would get more ludicrous by the minute.

I know I'm being a dick, but I don't understand why a film like The Dark Knight and Skyfall should be assessed so differently? Couldn't you pick them both apart in equal measures if you could be fucked? I really like them both and don't get the general; The Dark Knight is fucked because it was intended to be a serious film yet has major plot holes/contrivances above argument.



It's a fair question.

But we both agree that it happens. perhaps because Skyfall's liberties don't detract from the whole. They're consistent with the narrative or whatever else, whereas the Dark Knight's are numerous, and compromise the story.

And the actions scenes in the Dark Knight are unfathomable.

And it's nowhere near as good as Skyfall either (IMO)

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:22 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
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MGamesCook wrote:

Dark knight debates have a significant history on here, so it's not entirely off topic.


Yes, I know Dark Knight discussions have happened in the past. But this thread is not about that. This thread is about whether or not the forum is on its last legs or not. That's why I suggested that one of the Mods move the Dark Knight related posts into a new thread

For the record, I don't think the forum is dying. I think the activity here just ebbs and flows depending on different factors; i.e. how many people are online, what is going on in the world, what topics are being discussed, etc.


Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Technically this is a nostalgia thread about favorite past threads/topics. Not one aimed at discussing the state of the forum.

I think Skyfall functions in part as a figurative movie. Bond dies and is brought back to life so his relevance/importance can be evaluated. All figurative. Because so much of it is presented in visually figurative terms (like the ridiculous map of the London subway system) it's easier to accept the movie that way as a whole. Dark Knight is far too literal for that kind of analysis. I'm not sure a more abstract approach is beyond Nolan. For instance, I think the warehouse stealth sequence from Batman Begins is presented in a somewhat figurative way, Batman's skills being conveyed more stylishly. But there's nothing like that scene in Dark Knight.


Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:58 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Raf wrote:
I think one of the mods should move the Dark Knight related posts into a new thread, since it has nothing to do with the topic.


I thought about it for a brief moment but then decided to just let it go. It's an Open Forum, it's not impeding discussion of another movie/movie-related idea, and it hasn't resulted in any mudslinging. So whatevs.

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
NotHughGrant wrote:
Quote:
Okay cool, I think I'm getting it? Moonraker knew it was a bit of a joke, was set in it's own world and was made to be not taken seriously. That's where The Dark Knight get's it wrong. It was meant to be taken seriously, maybe as seriously as The Godfather. Actually, that's ridiculous, let's say as seriously as Skyfall.

Could someone please explain to me why I shouldn't analyze Skyfall to death, and rip apart every scene like I should with The Dark Knight? Kunz mentioned above he had a problem with the way The Joker escaped from his cell. Jesus. What were you thinking when Bond got shot in the chest, fell a hundred feet, then off a waterfall another fifty (or so) feet to be shown awake alive in an Asian retreat? How did he get there? It doesn't make much sense. He'd be dead in the first ten minutes of the film. Everything after that would get more ludicrous by the minute.

I know I'm being a dick, but I don't understand why a film like The Dark Knight and Skyfall should be assessed so differently? Couldn't you pick them both apart in equal measures if you could be fucked? I really like them both and don't get the general; The Dark Knight is fucked because it was intended to be a serious film yet has major plot holes/contrivances above argument.



It's a fair question.

But we both agree that it happens. perhaps because Skyfall's liberties don't detract from the whole. They're consistent with the narrative or whatever else, whereas the Dark Knight's are numerous, and compromise the story.

And the actions scenes in the Dark Knight are unfathomable.

And it's nowhere near as good as Skyfall either (IMO)


The most obvious plot contrivances in 'The Dark Knight' and 'Skyfall' are indeed very similar: The villain lets himself get caught with his escape already pre-planned and integral to his overall masterplan.

While it's fair to criticise 'The Dark Knight' for its weak plot, it should be noted that - like Skyfall - the plot isn't really that important for the enjoyment of the movie. Initially, I had a lot of reservations about 'The Dark Knight', mostly because I didn't (and still don't) understand neither the Joker's plan nor the plan to capture him. The movie has grown on me, though, and I consider it to be the best of the modern Batman movies. In my opinion, the movie relies on interesting characters and elaborate set pieces, where it excels, just like 'Skyfall', by the way.


Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:53 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Unke wrote:
The most obvious plot contrivances in 'The Dark Knight' and 'Skyfall' are indeed very similar: The villain lets himself get caught with his escape already pre-planned and integral to his overall masterplan.

While it's fair to criticise 'The Dark Knight' for its weak plot, it should be noted that - like Skyfall - the plot isn't really that important for the enjoyment of the movie. Initially, I had a lot of reservations about 'The Dark Knight', mostly because I didn't (and still don't) understand neither the Joker's plan nor the plan to capture him. The movie has grown on me, though, and I consider it to be the best of the modern Batman movies. In my opinion, the movie relies on interesting characters and elaborate set pieces, where it excels, just like 'Skyfall', by the way.

Maybe it might help if one looks another similarity between the villains: they are both crazy and near-suicidal in their plots. They were not out to accomplish any real objective other than showing how badly the "system" sucks. Thus, they were perfectly capable of implementing a plan that put themselves in immediate danger (re: allowing themselves to be captured).

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Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Came across this one and couldn't stop laughing:

Image

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Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:04 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
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While it's fair to criticise 'The Dark Knight' for its weak plot, it should be noted that - like Skyfall - the plot isn't really that important for the enjoyment of the movie. Initially, I had a lot of reservations about 'The Dark Knight', mostly because I didn't (and still don't) understand neither the Joker's plan nor the plan to capture him. The movie has grown on me, though, and I consider it to be the best of the modern Batman movies. In my opinion, the movie relies on interesting characters and elaborate set pieces, where it excels, just like 'Skyfall', by the way.


I find the set pieces to be quite weak compared to Skyfall's. There's nothing like the neon Shanghai or the crazy Macao casino...or the abandoned island, the London underground, the Skyfall mansion and the adjacent ice lake, the astonishing opening train sequence. The Dark Knight's best set piece isn't equal to Skyfall's 7th-best set piece. Even Skyfall's courtroom scene is seriously cool when Bond shoots the fire extinguishers to obscure Silva's sight. And that's a bright, vivid scene. The walls of the room pop out visually as being an essential part of the scene. All the walls in Dark Knight are too dark to see, and nothing pops out. Deakins vs Pfister is a big part of the gap as well. There are no black spaces on the screen in Skyfall. Every inch has been designed as a bright, vibrant set piece. But Dark Knight is full of dark spaces that haven't even been exposed by the camera much less designed by the production team. I believe it may be a conscious choice made by Nolan, but if so then for me, it makes the film impossible to enjoy in the same way that Skyfall can be enjoyed. I have the same beef with, for instance, Fast Furious 4 and Harry Potter 6-8, where some scenes are basically too dark to even see.

But I do agree that in many cases, the plot isn't that important for the enjoyment of the movie. That specific development is probably what defines the last 10 years of action movies.


Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:28 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
NotHughGrant wrote:
... next week, on The Bold and the Beautiful


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al8UHnjusq0

:) :D :) :) :) :) :) ;)

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Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:49 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
Quote:
While it's fair to criticise 'The Dark Knight' for its weak plot, it should be noted that - like Skyfall - the plot isn't really that important for the enjoyment of the movie. Initially, I had a lot of reservations about 'The Dark Knight', mostly because I didn't (and still don't) understand neither the Joker's plan nor the plan to capture him. The movie has grown on me, though, and I consider it to be the best of the modern Batman movies. In my opinion, the movie relies on interesting characters and elaborate set pieces, where it excels, just like 'Skyfall', by the way.


I find the set pieces to be quite weak compared to Skyfall's. There's nothing like the neon Shanghai or the crazy Macao casino...or the abandoned island, the London underground, the Skyfall mansion and the adjacent ice lake, the astonishing opening train sequence. The Dark Knight's best set piece isn't equal to Skyfall's 7th-best set piece. Even Skyfall's courtroom scene is seriously cool when Bond shoots the fire extinguishers to obscure Silva's sight. And that's a bright, vivid scene. The walls of the room pop out visually as being an essential part of the scene. All the walls in Dark Knight are too dark to see, and nothing pops out. Deakins vs Pfister is a big part of the gap as well. There are no black spaces on the screen in Skyfall. Every inch has been designed as a bright, vibrant set piece. But Dark Knight is full of dark spaces that haven't even been exposed by the camera much less designed by the production team. I believe it may be a conscious choice made by Nolan, but if so then for me, it makes the film impossible to enjoy in the same way that Skyfall can be enjoyed. I have the same beef with, for instance, Fast Furious 4 and Harry Potter 6-8, where some scenes are basically too dark to even see.

But I do agree that in many cases, the plot isn't that important for the enjoyment of the movie. That specific development is probably what defines the last 10 years of action movies.


I think that the set pieces in both movies are comparable in quality and don't find some of the scenes in 'Skyfall', which you have mentioned, that impressive (casino, abandoned island, London underground, ice lake). I like the initial bank robbery in 'The Dark Knight' very much and the Hong Kong sequence is very good, in my opinion. I suppose that it's a matter of personal taste.

When you're criticising 'The Dark Knight' for the darkness of its picture, I think you're missing the point a bit. It's a Batman movie and Batman is a nocturnal creature. He suddenly appears out of and disappears into shadows. It is appropriate that much of the movie takes place in darkness. It is also a thematically dark movie, so that fits as well. And I was also able to make out what was happening on screen at all times, at least to the extent that I was supposed to, in contrast to the last Harry Potter movies, which are indeed to dark to see.


Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:28 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
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at least to the extent that I was supposed to, in contrast to the last Harry Potter movies, which are indeed to dark to see.


I can admit that Harry Potter is far worse in that sense. But of course, I thought the design of the opening bank in Dark Knight was aggressively bland and unimaginative. One of the more generic banks ever robbed in the movies. Also bored by the Hong Kong stuff. The mesmerizing neon of Skyfall's Shanghai isn't there. A severely missed opportunity, especially for a Batman movie.


Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:39 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
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at least to the extent that I was supposed to, in contrast to the last Harry Potter movies, which are indeed to dark to see.


I can admit that Harry Potter is far worse in that sense. But of course, I thought the design of the opening bank in Dark Knight was aggressively bland and unimaginative. One of the more generic banks ever robbed in the movies. Also bored by the Hong Kong stuff. The mesmerizing neon of Skyfall's Shanghai isn't there. A severely missed opportunity, especially for a Batman movie.


I also found the entire idea of the Hong Kong scenes bad. Why is Batman going to Hong Kong?

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Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:16 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Yeah it's like, "Batman has no jurisdiction." He doesn't? I always thought he did.


Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:37 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
It probably hints at a bigger premise. But the film's shallow visual language can't convey the message.

Comparisons between The Dark Knight and Skyfall above are ludicrous. One is the polished, finished article. The other a spoiled brat's attempt at cinema.


Skyfall is the Aston Martin DB5. Dark Knight n over pumped drive-bound Ford GT

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Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
NotHughGrant wrote:
It probably hints at a bigger premise. But the film's shallow visual language can't convey the message.

Comparisons between The Dark Knight and Skyfall above are ludicrous. One is the polished, finished article. The other a spoiled brat's attempt at cinema.

Skyfall is the Aston Martin DB5. Dark Knight n over pumped drive-bound Ford GT


A spoiled brat's attempt at cinema? What, are you fucking nuts or just sarcastic? I'm hoping for the latter. If the latter, give me ten reasons why Skyfall is such a superior film to The Dark Knight, just ten.

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Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:30 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Haha, got ya!!

But, I'll take that offer. I'll start with 5 -

1. Bale looks the part, but his character isn't given much depth. It's a shame because Batman Begins starts off well in this regard. Then the Dark Knight makes it all a bit meh. Craig's Bond is a real guy. A man's man with all the shit that goes with it.

2. Heath Ledger's joker is massively overrated. His character is inferior to the villain in Skyfall, and needless to say Bardem is a better actor.

3. The plot in Skyfall is tighter. Refreshingly simple - that is to say you know the fuck is going on. And it at least makes some internal sense

4. The set pieces - see above. You know what's happening. Contrast this with the truck chase in the Dark Knight

5. The cinematography in Skyfall is lush. Absolutely stunning. In the Dark Knight it isn't.


... 5 more tomorrow ...

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Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:37 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
They're both overrated movies that, while decent, do not rise to the heights their fans think they do. And they both feature that stupid, stupid "master criminal gets himself caught ON PURPOSE" trope that I hatehatehate

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Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:58 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
The other perspective is to think Skyfall is better than Casino Royale and that Royale is a tad overrated. In purely visual terms, I can't find much fault with Skyfall. It also feels like the first Bond movie that hasn't been largely dominated by second unit photography.


Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:53 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
The other perspective is to think Skyfall is better than Casino Royale and that Royale is a tad overrated. In purely visual terms, I can't find much fault with Skyfall. It also feels like the first Bond movie that hasn't been largely dominated by second unit photography.


Naw man, Casino Royale had a heart that no other Bond film can match, with the possible exception of OHMSS.

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Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:34 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
JamesKunz wrote:
MGamesCook wrote:
The other perspective is to think Skyfall is better than Casino Royale and that Royale is a tad overrated. In purely visual terms, I can't find much fault with Skyfall. It also feels like the first Bond movie that hasn't been largely dominated by second unit photography.


Naw man, Casino Royale had a heart that no other Bond film can match, with the possible exception of OHMSS.


More and more I wonder if Majesty is a bit overhyped. It's one of the best for sure, but certainly not THE best. The fact is, Lazenby is a weakness that just can't be ignored. His performance simply doesn't ground the movie as much as it should. There's times when it plays as simply a theoretical representation of the best Bond movie because of that. There's a great film in there, but sometimes it's a little hard to reach.

For me, Skyfall's heart is as big as Casino Royale's, if not bigger. Casino definitely has a larger scope in terms of its own story, but I thought the final 30 minutes of Skyfall were extremely emotionally effective, and I think the visuals are more evocative. The emotion of skyfall is a metaphor for the old, fragile state of the franchise. I found that pretty damn moving.


Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:00 am
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