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Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love? 
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
I agree with James on the plot contrivances. The Joker's 'plan' couldn't work in any Universe. It'd be like sitting there and trying to guess loads of incredibly random events. That fucker should concentrate on playing the lottery. And Harvey Dent isn't much better. OK, he lost his girlfriend. A guy I know lost his Wife last year, I don't see him trying to kill others people's kids as a vague retaliation

Where I disagree with James is Ledger's performance, which I think is overrated in the extreme. For eccentric menace - check Javier Bardem in SKyfall as a far superior turn.

Of Nolan's Batman's films, The Dark Knight is the worst, in my humble one.




I also wonder if psycho killer characters getting Oscars for their actors is a little too easy. Joe Pesci, Anthony Hopkins, Javier Bardem, Heath Ledger, Christoph Waltz, nomination for Ralph Fiennes. Can't deny, pathology is a fascinating thing to watch an actor tackle, but after seeing real video interviews of Dahmer, Gacy, etc. it starts to seem a bit silly.

.


I think Hopkins and Pesci deserved. Waltz's win for Django was nonsense.

Bardem is a little overrated in No Country, but deserves it for the world's most menacing haircut.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:51 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
JamesKunz wrote:
Steven wrote:
JamesKunz wrote:
The absurd number of plot contrivances that are required for The Joker's inane plan to work (he's such a genius that he knows the glass in the interrogation room will break, a cop will come in, and he'll be able to use the glass to hold the cop hostage? And that's just one of many) and then the equally contrived device (it's like sonar! Except it shows where everyone in Gotham is!) that's required for Batman to catch him.


One of my friends pointed out some of the same issues a few years back. The best response I could give him was, "IT'S THE DARK KNIGHT AND IT'S FUCKING AWESOME! SHUT UP!"


Hardly. The Dark Knight is only awesome if you want to believe it is irrespective of quality.. Other than Heath Ledger's Joker, the movie doesn't have much going for it and has a whole lot wrong with it.



Yeah, that's awesome. The Joker knew how thick the glass was in the interrogation room, obviously knew Batman would throw him against the glass and he would pick up a sharp piece of it to hold a cop hostage to make his escape. That's what the genius/psychic knew would happen. There was no back up plan to ignite the bomb in the dude's stomach, the genius approach was the only way the Joker could escape.

I dream about speaking to Christopher Nolan all the time and sometimes channel Heath Ledger's thoughts. Sometimes they speak to me through different means. They've said there were 100 different ways the Joker could’ve escaped once the bomb was planted in the stomach of the dude who blew the joint up, allowing the Joker's exit. Initially, they said he paid off a cop from inside the building the Joker was in, (they didn't use the word genius either) but thought it would be a bit anti climatic to simply have the Joker nod at his inside man to blow the place up.

Now I'm confused because I don't know exactly the way the Joker thought it all through. Some points felt like they planned years in advance, were we'll executed and thought out, other's felt like random on the spot choices. One things for certain though, they are definitely plot contrivances/holes. Pisses me off a bit that an action film with character's named Bruce Wayne/ Batman and the Joker isn't taken more seriously. It needs to be.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:48 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
NotHughGrant wrote:
Better yet -

Quote:
I'm so angry at the guy who killed my girlfriend, I'll team up with him and kill they people who tried to save her. Am I some crackhead lunatic with a fucked morality? No I'm Harvey Dent, crimebusting District Attorney, so naturally when a killer gets away with something, my instincts are to team up with the killer. I don't know why I did this, perhaps because of the piece of crappy homespun philosophy I live by, yeah you know the one "you either die young or live long enough to become the villain". I think it was an Asylum Films rip-off of Logan's Run, or perhaps Battle Royale, I picked up that gem of information. Maybe a Christmas cracker. Maybe HITLER. Who the fuck cares anyway, it sounds good when I say it in posh restaurants, so it must be right, right?? Anyway, what was I saying, oh yeah, District Attorney, let's get to work, Rachel ... oh shit yeah she's dead. That's why I'm all fucked up. Things have changed. Changed so much my piece of philosophy has become real, or self-fulfilling at least. I'm confused. If a tree falls in the woods and no-one hears it, would Rachel be dead now?? No, no must think straight - The Joker, that's right, I love the Joker.

Lights!


That's an awesome point too. What did you think of Moonraker Lee?

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:55 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
I can answer that. I think Moonraker is a bit stupid and knows it's a bit stupid. Dark Knight is stupid and doesn't know it.


Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:13 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
JamesKunz wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
I agree with James on the plot contrivances. The Joker's 'plan' couldn't work in any Universe. It'd be like sitting there and trying to guess loads of incredibly random events. That fucker should concentrate on playing the lottery. And Harvey Dent isn't much better. OK, he lost his girlfriend. A guy I know lost his Wife last year, I don't see him trying to kill others people's kids as a vague retaliation



For real. Not to mention, his logic seems to work like this:

"I am so angry that my girlfriend was killed, that I will...team up with her killer?"

I don't think that Harvey was really applying anything resembling logic by the time he had his conversation with The Joker. Also, if you recall: the Joker did give him the opportunity to kill him (re: the first coin flip as Two-Face). In his own way, The Joker was fair.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
I can answer that. I think Moonraker is a bit stupid and knows it's a bit stupid. Dark Knight is stupid and doesn't know it.

DK is stupid in parts, but people were willing to forgive it because the rest of the parts were very good. You could say the same thing about films like Looper and Inception. I guess it comes down to how much of a stickler one is about the details of a film. I have a friend who utterly hates The Gangs of New York purely on the basis of the continuity errors made in that film (which admittedly are quite a fucking few- sloppy work, Scorsese). Does a "perfect film" exist? That is all in the eye of the beholder.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:38 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Ragnarok73 wrote:
MGamesCook wrote:
I can answer that. I think Moonraker is a bit stupid and knows it's a bit stupid. Dark Knight is stupid and doesn't know it.

DK is stupid in parts, but people were willing to forgive it because the rest of the parts were very good. You could say the same thing about films like Looper and Inception. I guess it comes down to how much of a stickler one is about the details of a film. I have a friend who utterly hates The Gangs of New York purely on the basis of the continuity errors made in that film (which admittedly are quite a fucking few- sloppy work, Scorsese). Does a "perfect film" exist? That is all in the eye of the beholder.


I'm curious because I've seen Gangs a lot -- what are the glaring errors?

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:42 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
JamesKunz wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:
MGamesCook wrote:
I can answer that. I think Moonraker is a bit stupid and knows it's a bit stupid. Dark Knight is stupid and doesn't know it.

DK is stupid in parts, but people were willing to forgive it because the rest of the parts were very good. You could say the same thing about films like Looper and Inception. I guess it comes down to how much of a stickler one is about the details of a film. I have a friend who utterly hates The Gangs of New York purely on the basis of the continuity errors made in that film (which admittedly are quite a fucking few- sloppy work, Scorsese). Does a "perfect film" exist? That is all in the eye of the beholder.


I'm curious because I've seen Gangs a lot -- what are the glaring errors?

I don't know about "glaring", but according to him, that film apparently set some sort of record for the sheer number of continuity errors made. I really didn't care, because I liked the film.

Here's a website that lists them all- quite a few there.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Ragnarok73 wrote:


I'm curious because I've seen Gangs a lot -- what are the glaring errors?

I don't know about "glaring", but according to him, that film apparently set some sort of record for the sheer number of continuity errors made. I really didn't care, because I liked the film.

Here's a website that lists them all- quite a few there.[/quote]

I'm with you. I don't think the average film watcher notices continuity errors without looking, and so belaboring them is silly

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:46 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Continuity errors are different from plot holes. With dark knight, I have less an issue with either of those things and more with character motivation and general logic. To question the entire motivation of Harvey Dent isn't a nitpick, it's definitely a big picture issue. Questioning the Joker's abilities isn't about plot, it's about the basic integrity of the concept of the movie. There's no one moment in the movie I can point to that encapsulates these problems. I just see an underlying laziness in the production overall and general indifference with some of the screenwriting. Nolan's trying to be clever, but good screenwriting isn't really about cleverness.


Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
Continuity errors are different from plot holes. With dark knight, I have less an issue with either of those things and more with character motivation and general logic. To question the entire motivation of Harvey Dent isn't a nitpick, it's definitely a big picture issue. Questioning the Joker's abilities isn't about plot, it's about the basic integrity of the concept of the movie. There's no one moment in the movie I can point to that encapsulates these problems. I just see an underlying laziness in the production overall and general indifference with some of the screenwriting. Nolan's trying to be clever, but good screenwriting isn't really about cleverness.


Good points through and through

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:25 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
MGamesCook wrote:
Continuity errors are different from plot holes.


Bangarang, Rufio. Certainly continuity should be strived for, but Eastwood and Soderbergh (among others) are on the record for consciously allowing continuity errors because of a performance or shot that they like. I'm fine with that. What Kunzo and McGames are talking about is totally different, of course.

MGamesCook wrote:
I just see an underlying laziness in the production overall and general indifference with some of the screenwriting. Nolan's trying to be clever, but good screenwriting isn't really about cleverness.


I disagree wholeheartedly about the cleverness -- I don't think the guy has a clever bone in his body. I think he simply doesn't care. He thinks the visceral experience of his films make up for the problems. I don't think they do, of course, but to each their own. I don't think laziness is quite fair because it seems like such a conscious decision to abandon it. I don't respect it in any sense, mind you, I just don't think it's laziness per se.


Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:58 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
JamesKunz wrote:
Ragnarok73 wrote:


I'm curious because I've seen Gangs a lot -- what are the glaring errors?

I don't know about "glaring", but according to him, that film apparently set some sort of record for the sheer number of continuity errors made. I really didn't care, because I liked the film.

Here's a website that lists them all- quite a few there.


I'm with you. I don't think the average film watcher notices continuity errors without looking, and so belaboring them is silly[/quote]

This site lists Apocolypse Now as the movie with the most mistakes. 561? Christ almighty.

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Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:09 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Shade2 wrote:

I disagree wholeheartedly about the cleverness -- I don't think the guy has a clever bone in his body. I think he simply doesn't care. He thinks the visceral experience of his films make up for the problems. I don't think they do, of course, but to each their own. I don't think laziness is quite fair because it seems like such a conscious decision to abandon it. I don't respect it in any sense, mind you, I just don't think it's laziness per se.


I agree and disagree with this.

I agree with this bit

Quote:
I think he simply doesn't care. He thinks the visceral experience of his films make up for the problems


But that doesn't necessarily preclude him from being lazy. The Dark Knight needed a darn good proof read. Not to give it one hints and laziness or arrogance. Neither particularly appealing in a film maker.

I think after 6 years, we can look at the Dark Knight and go 'yeah, that didn't really work'.

My issue with myself on it is that I should have gone with my instincts. I first watched it in an Adelaide Movie theatre ater sharing a pitcher and a half's worth of lager with my cousin, I thought 'that was a bit of a mess', but then I blamed the beer, the dizziness of being on my jollies in t'other side of the world, the lighting, the fact I was wearing a stripy jumper that added 20 pounds to me. I later strained to understand and give it another chance. But no, the truth is, it's not a well made film. It still has some scenes I really like (for examples Batman's introduction in the car park), but many scenes that don't work, don't make any sense, and that contribute to a messy whole.

Like I say, the worst of the 3. But the highest rated. So what do I know?!

And to answer Wise-o's original question -

Quote:
I can answer that. I think Moonraker is a bit stupid and knows it's a bit stupid. Dark Knight is stupid and doesn't know it.


Trite, but yeah, true. Moonraker may well be shit. But its shit on it's own terms.

I wouldn't compare Naked Gun to Dirty Harry (although that is one review I would read if someone else did)

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Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:01 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
I was never taken with Heath Ledger's Joker, but he has grown on me (the movie has been on TV so many times I've caught a half-hour here and there). At the time he was honored with the Oscar I thought it was more due to circumstances than his performance, but have changed my mind. Despite all of Joker's planning and scheming his state of mind was not such that he was worried about about staying alive to execute those schemes. It would have been fine by him if he died in his mayhem leaving behind some unfinished business. He was daring death to take him and a combination of luck, making the most of that luck, and a moral refusal to kill him by the good guys kept him and his adventures going.


Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:54 am
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
CasualDad wrote:
I was never taken with Heath Ledger's Joker, but he has grown on me (the movie has been on TV so many times I've caught a half-hour here and there). At the time he was honored with the Oscar I thought it was more due to circumstances than his performance, but have changed my mind. Despite all of Joker's planning and scheming his state of mind was not such that he was worried about about staying alive to execute those schemes. It would have been fine by him if he died in his mayhem leaving behind some unfinished business. He was daring death to take him and a combination of luck, making the most of that luck, and a moral refusal to kill him by the good guys kept him and his adventures going.

Still for me the sheer amount of luck needed for such schemes demand just far too much suspension of disbelief on my part.


Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Vexer wrote:
CasualDad wrote:
I was never taken with Heath Ledger's Joker, but he has grown on me (the movie has been on TV so many times I've caught a half-hour here and there). At the time he was honored with the Oscar I thought it was more due to circumstances than his performance, but have changed my mind. Despite all of Joker's planning and scheming his state of mind was not such that he was worried about about staying alive to execute those schemes. It would have been fine by him if he died in his mayhem leaving behind some unfinished business. He was daring death to take him and a combination of luck, making the most of that luck, and a moral refusal to kill him by the good guys kept him and his adventures going.

Still for me the sheer amount of luck needed for such schemes demand just far too much suspension of disbelief on my part.


I understand. I've just grown to understand (not admire) that the character is able to survive simply because he has no fear of death and is able to focus on his insane agenda without distraction. Whether or not that was the intention of the director, actor, and writer I cannot say, but it makes all of the Joker's ingenuity work without thinking that he had to have every last detail planned out.


Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:35 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
I think one of the mods should move the Dark Knight related posts into a new thread, since it has nothing to do with the topic.


Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:15 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Raf wrote:
I think one of the mods should move the Dark Knight related posts into a new thread, since it has nothing to do with the topic.


Dark knight debates have a significant history on here, so it's not entirely off topic.


Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:22 pm
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Post Re: Now that the forum is dying... any lasting threads you love?
Okay cool, I think I'm getting it? Moonraker knew it was a bit of a joke, was set in it's own world and was made to be not taken seriously. That's where The Dark Knight get's it wrong. It was meant to be taken seriously, maybe as seriously as The Godfather. Actually, that's ridiculous, let's say as seriously as Skyfall.

Could someone please explain to me why I shouldn't analyze Skyfall to death, and rip apart every scene like I should with The Dark Knight? Kunz mentioned above he had a problem with the way The Joker escaped from his cell. Jesus. What were you thinking when Bond got shot in the chest, fell a hundred feet, then off a waterfall another fifty (or so) feet to be shown awake alive in an Asian retreat? How did he get there? It doesn't make much sense. He'd be dead in the first ten minutes of the film. Everything after that would get more ludicrous by the minute.

I know I'm being a dick, but I don't understand why a film like The Dark Knight and Skyfall should be assessed so differently? Couldn't you pick them both apart in equal measures if you could be fucked? I really like them both and don't get the general; The Dark Knight is fucked because it was intended to be a serious film yet has major plot holes/contrivances above argument.


Read this review and tell me where James' get's it so wrong, http://www.reelviews.net/php_review_tem ... ifier=1235 or this one where he get's it so right : http://www.reelviews.net/php_review_tem ... ifier=2546.

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Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:42 am
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