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So... let me get this straight 
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Post So... let me get this straight
Wisey posts this...

wisey wrote:
They guy will always be an auteur in my book, but only for his work on Trainspotting. That film is an absolute masterpiece, always in the best twenty films I've ever seen category. When it was released in 1995, it was harrowing and hilarious in equal measures. When viewed again today, it has the same impact. It's aged better than Pulp Fiction, which is saying something in itself. The Doors, Fargo and Boogie Nights might be the only other films of the 90's to have aged as well?

I tried watching Shallow Grave again before 127 Hours came out, to get back into Danny Boyle mode. Only then did I realize he doesn’t have a mode. Shallow Grave has aged dismally, the last half hour is tedious viewing, and 127 Hours was watchable, but we all just wanted it to end. Same with: The Beach, 28 Days Later, Sunshine, Slumdog blah, blah blah.

Having said that Larry, if he ever ends up ever making Porno, the follow up to Trainspotting, it will be mandatory viewing. If someone has one genuine


Vexer responds with this...

wisey wrote:
Trainspotting is good, but I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call it better then Pulp Fiction.

Shallow Grave was good, 127 Hours was kind of eh.


Which, say what you want, but seems like a perfectly reasonable reply to the other post. And all of a sudden, wisey erupts with this?

wisey wrote:
I never said it was a better film, only that it had dated better than Pulp Fiction.

Vexer, I really can't be fucked with your shit. Shade has tried to be as nice as he can to you on the Open Forum thinking that you might one day turn around and say, "Thanks, you may be right. I'll think a little more before I post. If I don't have anything positive or insightful to say, I might just let that thought go." I know you'll never get to that point, so I'm asking you please, to never post anything again after something I've just written. I could bring up 30 times when you have posted something straight after I have, that is contrary or annoying, and I'm hardly a regular poster.

This forum is dying a slow death and you are a big reason why.

Why should people have to skip over what you post in order to not get agitated? On the flip side, it must feel horrible for you at times to have 90% of your posts ignored or disagreed upon? I think it’s why you’ve got to this point. You argue out of habit.


...and it is Vexer the one who gets banned for his reply to wisey's abrupt rant?

Oh, and you lock a perfectly decent film thread just because of that?

Just wanted to see if I understand how things are done around here.

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Sun May 18, 2014 4:24 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Who said wisey isn't getting banned?

This goes beyond individual replies. This is in response to things that have been cooking and cooking and cooking. I appreciate that you're concerned with what happened here, but I don't think you're looking at this bigger picture of what's been recurring, literally, for years.

Wisey has expressed private concern with me and other moderators a handful of times. He cares about the state of things. I care about the state of things. Maybe I should have cared more over the years.

If enough people clamor for a reversal of my action, I'll happily do it. I'll even ban myself. Can I do that? I guess I'll find out.

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Sun May 18, 2014 4:38 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Also:
Thief12 wrote:
Oh, and you lock a perfectly decent film thread just because of that?

After those outbursts occurred, how is that thread still decent?

You can create another one, you know.

It's not like we haven't had a Danny Boyle thread before.

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Sun May 18, 2014 4:40 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
It appears as though I'm missed a lot while partying at the Preakness.

I may be the new mod around here, but I'm all for this. It had to be done.

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Sun May 18, 2014 6:04 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Pedro and KWRoss,

I'm afraid I'm with Thief12 on this one. I had a chance to go over the thread on Danny Boyle and I didn't find anything objectionable to Vexer's posts or to his reply to wisey (prior to wisey's outburst) -- he was expressing his opinion on films by Boyle and Ron Howard in a rather matter-of-fact way and there was nothing at all offensive or disrespectful in what he posted, as far as I could detect.

wisey for some reason immediately went into an abrupt rant against Vexer, and from what I can tell, he was taken aback by wisey's post (as I would have, if the post was directed at me). Vexer's response in that context doesn't seem all that unreasonable and I don't think it merited a banning on his part.

Perhaps you can explain to me (either through this thread or through a PM) what exactly have been brewing, to at least understand what the fundamental issue is, if that is not too much to ask?


Sun May 18, 2014 6:20 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
I'm with Pedro with this one and not because there's the bond of mods going on but this a cumulative thing with Vexer. There is no one post that one can point and say "Oh, I see why Vexer's got banned." But every post is Vexer posting some weak-ass, bland opinion on whatever that nobody asked for and when somebody calls him out, all he does is say that person is the reason why things are as bad as they were. I've had it with Vexer. He really adds nothing to the discussion and quite frankly, he's kinda belittling to people when he types words. And I'll say this on record, my greatest regret as a mod here was not banning Vexer.

So I support Pedro and I demand a permanent ban. Maybe then this place will get fun again.



And if anybody says that this is personal against Vexer....you are correct.


Sun May 18, 2014 6:31 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
As a very irregular poster I hope this isn't out of place. I am a regular reader, I read everything posted everyday and when Beef was banned people accepted that because he brought down the collective intelligence of the forum. I strongly feel that Vexer does this, and I even find he does it to a more severe degree than Beef did. (Obviously very different situations, and they both clearly brought down the intelligence level around here, but I personally find Vexer far more annoying and detrimental than I ever found Beef to be.) So I am in support of this. It isn't about the Danny Boyle argument, it's about every single fucking thread.

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Sun May 18, 2014 6:53 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
I don't intend this as a personal attack against Vexer. I think contrary opinions are all right. They can serve a purpose, but the thing is that you've got to be able to back them up. You can't post something like "Eh, I think Freddy Got Fingered is a better movie than The Godfather" and not back that up, or else it's trolling. Granted, I would like to see someone make this argument seriously.

Now, insofar as Vexer is concerned, I did find his constant use of quotes irksome. I still don't know if this was an attempt to be condescending or just because he didn't know proper grammar.

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Sun May 18, 2014 6:56 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Wow, wake up this. Before I went to bed last night I saw wisey's outburst and Vexer's reply. I almost posted something then, but didn't, mainly because even though wisey expressed it in a kinda rude rant, the sentiment was not something I disagree with. Maybe not in this particular case, where people can easily misinterpret wisey's meaning, but often I got the feeling that Vexer wanted to jump into the contradictory mode so much that he didn't bother to read properly. People often have to repeat , even quote, again and again what they had said before to make a point. Also, regarding contradictory opinions, I would even prefer Armond White to contradict my posts than Vexer; at least I would get something meaty with reasons, not just my sentences being read back to me with some addition "I really don't agree with..."s, "not"s, or the antonyms of my adjectives.


Sun May 18, 2014 10:41 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Shit, I've missed a bit this weekend.

There has been something of a pressure cooker of sorts on here over the past few weeks. I contributed to it myself with a fairly appalling outburst on Thursday, before going onto self-imposed exile for the weekend.

Anyhow, my 2 cents is that a couple of years ago, Vex was just as contrary but with a little more meat on the bones, and there seemed to be a bit of humour in with it. But yeah, I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but contrarian-bot 3000 seems to have had some kind of system stroke in the past few months, and now offers up bland contrary filler. I'd be lying if I said his "eh, I don't rate suchathing, I much prefer suchathing" comments don't cause a very brief but K2-like spike in my blood pressure.

And that's the problem with being a contrarian, there are 3 words you must live by.

Explain
EXPLAIN
EXPLAIN


Having said all that, I'm not sure we should be using this as an opportunity to gang-up. Especially as he (for 7 days at least) has no right of reply.

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Mon May 19, 2014 6:18 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
NotHughGrant wrote:
Shit, I've missed a bit this weekend.

There has been something of a pressure cooker of sorts on here over the past few weeks. I contributed to it myself with a fairly appalling outburst on Thursday, before going onto self-imposed exile for the weekend.

Anyhow, my 2 cents is that a couple of years ago, Vex was just as contrary but with a little more meat on the bones, and there seemed to be a bit of humour in with it. But yeah, I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but contrarian-bot 3000 seems to have had some kind of system stroke in the past few months, and now offers up bland contrary filler. I'd be lying if I said his "eh, I don't rate suchathing, I much prefer suchathing" comments don't cause a very brief but K2-like spike in my blood pressure.

And that's the problem with being a contrarian, there are 3 words you must live by.

Explain
EXPLAIN
EXPLAIN


Having said all that, I'm not sure we should be using this as an opportunity to gang-up. Especially as he (for 7 days at least) has no right of reply.


But that's the crux of your argument right there; that somehow if you have an opinion that differs with those who happen to post here on Reelviews, that it is somehow your obligation or your requirement to explain yourself, as if you somehow must justify those opinions to you and the rest of the forums, to keep you in good standing to "the club".

I don't know about the rest of you, but that comes across as awfully arrogant and elitist to me. Part of the rationale for this forum is for movie-lovers of all types to express their opinions on film (and anything related to film) in an open setting. Vexer has expressed opinions that I have both agreed with and vehemently disagreed with (more disagreed than agreed, admittedly), but looking at his overall postings, I can conclude that his opinions are genuine and that he's not simply trolling . I understand that it is within the moderators' discretion to determine who can be banned or not banned, but so long as he's following the basic guidelines for the forums I feel that Vexer (and other posters like him) should be allowed to express them here. If anything, wisey's outburst against Vexer (while spoken out of frustration) was out of line and was more deserving of banning (if I understand Pedro, I believe wisey was also banned, am I correct?)


Mon May 19, 2014 9:58 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Here's the deal, though: Having a contrary opinion is all right, but there's a very thin line between holding a contrary opinion legitimately and being a contrarian troll. It's one thing to say that you prefer High School Musical 3 to The Godfather and have some kind of rationale behind it. It's quite another to just dismissively say, "Eh, The Godfather sucks, High School Musical is better" without coming off as a troll. I can't be the only one who finds such behavior annoying.

Feel free to disagree with me, of course. But I think this is the point (at least somewhat) that the mods are trying to get across.

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Mon May 19, 2014 10:43 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
I may have missed something, but if Vexer's temporary ban should be the direct result of what has been written in the "Danny Boyle" thread, it seems unjustified to me, because Vexer neither employed strong language nor did he write anything disrespectful to others. Indeed, it was wisey who lost his rag a bit and employed choice language, which would, strictly speaking, infringe the rules set out by James Berardinelli. (To be clear, banning wisey temporarily would also seem unjustified to me.)

I understand that the moderators' problem with Vexer is that he regularly replies to other posters by stating his disagreement without providing any further reasoning. Although I've never been sure whether Vexer genuinely holds the opinions, which he states here, or whether he is trolling, I don't think that his M.O. warrants a ban. Sure, it may be annoying for the poster, who is addressed by Vexer, but, let's be honest, there aren't too many persons posting on this board, who wouldn't know how Vexer works. I find it easy to ignore these posts and if someone is truly upset by them, it says more about that person's irascibility than Vexer's taste in films. I mean, if you get annoyed about that, what'll happen once there is a real problem?

Also, I don't think that the (presumably) problematic posts kill discussion on this forum (although they certainly don't further discussion.). Vexer was around when there were more active members and I don't think it was him who scared them away. You might just as well blame any other poster, who has at some point made a borderline insulting, confrontative, contradictorily argued, badly phrased, patronising, ill-informed, asininely argued, offensive, condescending or simply deliberately off-topic and nonsensical post. I would include myself in that group. I've written it before, but "lowering the collective intelligence of the forum" isn't a valid argument, because this is a completely arbitrary criterion and, as I understand it, moderators are meant to keep discussion within the forum's rules rather than judging the quality of the contributions.


Mon May 19, 2014 10:44 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Let's just agree that in film (as in life) there is something called "objective standards". Not a crystal clear, absolutely defined standards, but we all know they exists. Otherwise you'd be happy to eat a horseshit sandwich for dinner.

If someone says that Freddy Got Fingered is better than The Godfather (to borrow an example from above) then fuck it yeah, that person should explain why.

I hold opinions that swim against the tide, and I feel I have some duty to at least try to explain why I hold them.
Not justify ... but explain. Elaborate.

Now, I actually don't think Vexer should be banned. But at the same time his recent posts exist just to contradict others with no elaboration whatsoever. Is it a form of trolling? Sometimes it feels like it.

I must admit, it pisses me off when I put a degree of thought into a post, just to see a witless, off-the-cuff one-line rebuttal underneath it. I have no problem being told that I'm wrong, or perhaps more accurately that someone disagrees with me, but the method of delivery matters. And so too its relationship to anything approaching a logic or reason that I can understand.

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Mon May 19, 2014 10:46 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
The elitism comment has been thrown at us before. It might have been Kunz who had a whole topic about it, but I could be wrong. Back then, we were far more elitist, though. Not necessarily coincidentally, it was a better time then.

I've had some time to sit on all this.

Firstly, everyone's probably going to serve their bans. Wisey was banned for a few days (he might not even notice), Vexer and Cook were banned for a month. Cook hasn't even been brought up (right?) because I'm not sure anyone knew about it but the moderators.

Secondly, I didn't expect this to be a popular decision. I think it was more obvious when it came to roastbeef; the matter of these bans is one that's philosophical in nature. Will the forum be better without them? Until now, we haven't had any data to prove yes or no. I didn't ban them because they have contrarion opinions. I banned them because they, at one time or another, violated the forum's rules. The CRUX of the ban, though, is that their contrarion opinions come with a cost.

I can't count how many times I've read back-and-forths with these two and it seems like they're not listening or they don 't care. I always thought the point of debate was to convince someone of your point-of-view but concede good points when they come up. There's no concession with them. They have to be right. They can't be convinced of anything. They can't learn anything. It's frustrating to interact with a brick wall, is it not? It's certainly been frustrating for me to watch members interact with a brick wall.

Thirdly, I'll freely admit to being a dick in the other thread. A lot of things have happened on this forum over the years and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. If I decide to reinstate Vexer, I will apologize for being an asshole. He must feel awful right now. Cook, who contacted me privately, conveyed these thoughts to me, but he didn't need to convey them to me in order for me to know about that.

I will not apologize for banning them, though. This is going to happen, at least for a little while.

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Mon May 19, 2014 10:53 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Cook actually contacted me privately as well, saying that there are better ways to "bring the forum back to life," so to speak, than just suspending him and Vexer. There are things we could do like bring back the Great Movies Thread or have a video competition. Obviously the dude has a vast knowledge of film and film history, way more than I do, that's for sure. But it hasn't hit him yet that this suspension is not about contrarian opinions or who knows more than the next guy, but about him being a dick repeatedly over a long period of time. There's a reason the very first rule of the forum is "Be Civil." It doesn't take much to draw a parallel with the Armond White/NYFCC awards incident from a few months ago.

Regarding Vexer, I really had no idea how deep this went until I became a mod and had access to the reports. The number of reports he issues against other people is staggering. I mean jaw-dropping. Sometimes it's justified, like with roastbeef's antics. But is there really a need, for example, to repeatedly report posters who make fun of Lindsay Lohan? At some point you just gotta learn to laugh, shake your head, and be like "whatever, man." It's part of being an adult. It's not a black-and-white rule, but does it need to be? Isn't learning not to take everything as a personal attack just something we figure out as we grow up?

Ultimately, this could be a great teachable moment for both. I hope they come back wiser from the experience.

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Mon May 19, 2014 11:44 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
NotHughGrant wrote:
Having said all that, I'm not sure we should be using this as an opportunity to gang-up. Especially as he (for 7 days at least) has no right of reply.


This seems fair, but after 7 days (or a month?!), if/when Vexer returns, I'm not sure he is capable of change. Assuming presence of some honesty in his previous 1000's of posts, (added to Ken's reports report above) I'm not sure this is possible.

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Mon May 19, 2014 11:51 am
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Vexer is probably the one reason why I'd like an ignore feature. I mean, he seems like a nice enough guy. He's just a guy with different tastes than me, who never really explains why he likes those things beyond saying a couple of buzzwords. What's that Vexer? You found an actress to be "compelling" in a movie you liked! What do you actually mean by that? You don't know? Fair enough.

And it's fine. It's fine. I don't really want to see the guy punished for having quirks I find annoying, since he seems like an otherwise upstanding human being. I juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust wish I could skip his posts entirely. No point seeing them. Because I know I'm going to be curious about why he might hold some kind of opinion, and it's like talking to a brick wall. So why bother, ya know?

Cook is, well, Cook seems awfully pseudo-intellectual at times, and seems to go out of his way to belittle people who feel differently than him. I don't have to look hard to find the films he doesn't like. He'll go out of his way to remind people.

I also don't want to see the place become an echo chamber. I like contrary opinion. I think it's great when a guy like NotHugh fights against the grain. But I wouldn't mind being able to ignore Vexer, and I just kind of wish Cook would grow up.


Mon May 19, 2014 12:35 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
KWRoss wrote:
But is there really a need, for example, to repeatedly report posters who make fun of Lindsay Lohan?


I guess that means I got reported, since I'm a member of the "making fun of Lindsay Lohan" fan club.

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Mon May 19, 2014 12:42 pm
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Post Re: So... let me get this straight
Awf Hand wrote:
This seems fair, but after 7 days (or a month?!), if/when Vexer returns, I'm not sure he is capable of change. Assuming presence of some honesty in his previous 1000's of posts, (added to Ken's reports report above) I'm not sure this is possible.

For clarity's sake, he's referring to KWRoss, AKA Nu Ken. I am Ken Prime and always will be.

Anyway, the mods' first duty is to maintain a forum's integrity and prevent it from decaying. It would be facile to say that they're only here to enforce the rules, since rule enforcement is attendant on that larger goal. As I do not have the insider info, I can't say whether or not I would have handled it the same way, but I realize it was a judgment call and I respect that.

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