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Proof that everyone sells out 
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Mark-If you haven't seen them, you really can't say for certain whether or not they're better.

I just personally find the Indy films aren't the classics people make them out to be.

Maybe it was the terrible dialogue De Niro had to recite that made his performance in Hide And Seek seemed phoned in.

Yeah i've seen Casino and I too think it's a better movie then Goodfellas.


Thu May 01, 2014 4:02 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Ken wrote:
Mark III wrote:
1) I've never seen a Transformers film and, even though the great ed_metal_head said the first one was good, I never will. I still hate when people, including myself, complain about them as if they're the worst things ever committed to film.

If you can tell me what is worse than the aggressively mediocre, I'd love to hear it.

(Don't say Hitler. That's a given.)

I can tell you what is worse, a film that is flat out appalling, offensive and wrong on so many levels like "Goodbye Uncle Tom", see that and I gurantee you every single "aggresively mediocre" film you've ever seen will look like a goddamn masterpiece by comparison.


Thu May 01, 2014 4:08 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The six films surrounding MI3 that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War, Doubt and Synecdoche, New York. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other six films.

Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!

The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.

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Thu May 01, 2014 9:16 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The five films around that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War and Doubt. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other five films.

Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!

The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.


Look, buddy, first of all you get angry really easy these days. You might want to take the "chill pill" of which teenagers used to speak.

Secondly, selling out involves compromising your artistic integrity. Not just doing something for the money. Philip Seymour Hoffman never condescended to a role. He never phoned in a performance. He never winked at the audience like Bruce Willis. He elevated everything he was in. And so as far as I am concerned, he never sold out. Not even a little bit.

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Thu May 01, 2014 9:47 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The six films surrounding MI3 that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War, Doubt and Synecdoche, New York. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other six films.


The film may be the odd one out, but his performance isn't. And you act as if it's universally accepted that MI3 gets the Michael Bay-level pan (and imho, it's better than Synecdoche in quality, if not in ambition).

Quote:
Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!


Right, because the creative team from the second to the third film is totally the same. He's totally thinking JJ Abrams was going to do the same thing as John Woo.


Thu May 01, 2014 10:07 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:
The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.


Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone saying money wasn't ever a part of his choices. But again, I think you're oversimplifying the idea of selling out and making the wrong kind of equations. Certainly none of us can get in his head, but we can, as observers, qualify his performance as worthy and real. So let's follow a made-up timeline: PSH gets an offer to do MI:3, and either in specifics or generalities knows that it carries with it a larger paycheck then he'll get for something like Owning Mahowney. And so there's appeal. Maybe the script or director or actor impresses/intrigues him, maybe he thinks he can do something interesting with it, maybe he does indeed just need a check. Regardless, he gives it his all. I just can't buy how that's selling out. Again, the amount of money is inherently laced to the level of film, and we forget how many working actors need checks big and small. We're quick to praise the artistic integrity of actors who take a lesser paycheck, but there's nothing inherently artful in that, and nothing that indicates necessarily that they're not doing it for the money. It's about the performance.

Serious question: is a band doing an arena show inherently selling out? Or doing SNL? Or Sesame Street? I'm not saying this is you, Wisey, but sometimes people seem to expect artists of any sort to have no sense of life other than grave seriousness.


Thu May 01, 2014 11:18 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The six films surrounding MI3 that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War, Doubt and Synecdoche, New York. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other six films.

Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!

The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.

Man, you really need to calm the hell down, PSH did NOT sell out just cause he did a commercially succesful mainstream film.


Thu May 01, 2014 1:15 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Even if PSH did do MI:3 for the money, it works out well for him or any other actor. Sometimes it's necessary to collect a big paycheck so you can keep making the lower-budgeted, non-box-office-player type of films you really want to make.

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Thu May 01, 2014 1:40 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
KWRoss wrote:
Even if PSH did do MI:3 for the money, it works out well for him or any other actor. Sometimes it's necessary to collect a big paycheck so you can keep making the lower-budgeted, non-box-office-player type of films you really want to make.

Exactly, actors like Ian McKellan and Ewan McGregor have admitted to doing big-budget films so that they can afford to make the smaller films that really matter to them.


Thu May 01, 2014 1:50 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Shade2 wrote:
Serious question: is a band doing an arena show inherently selling out? Or doing SNL? Or Sesame Street? I'm not saying this is you, Wisey, but sometimes people seem to expect artists of any sort to have no sense of life other than grave seriousness.


Serious answer: depends on whom you ask. I know people who've accused indie bands of selling out (Cake, Modest Mouse, Nirvana, R.E.M., etc.) just from signing a major label deal. My response has always been: do you really want to begrudge these people making money doing something they love? Really?


Thu May 01, 2014 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Gwaihir wrote:
Shade2 wrote:
Serious question: is a band doing an arena show inherently selling out? Or doing SNL? Or Sesame Street? I'm not saying this is you, Wisey, but sometimes people seem to expect artists of any sort to have no sense of life other than grave seriousness.


Serious answer: depends on whom you ask. I know people who've accused indie bands of selling out (Cake, Modest Mouse, Nirvana, R.E.M., etc.) just from signing a major label deal. My response has always been: do you really want to begrudge these people making money doing something they love? Really?


And of course, on any real level that's absurd. If a North Carolina school where I KNEW I would be more fulfilled and make more of a difference offered me a job over my current Maryland job, but with the 10-15,000 paycut I'd have to take (poor North Carolinan teachers), I would not take it. Am I all about the money?

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Thu May 01, 2014 5:13 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
KWRoss wrote:
Even if PSH did do MI:3 for the money, it works out well for him or any other actor. Sometimes it's necessary to collect a big paycheck so you can keep making the lower-budgeted, non-box-office-player type of films you really want to make.


This would be my response. Ethan Hawke is known for doing this; he'll take a role in a really shitty movie with a big payday every now and then (like that recent one he did with Selena Gomez) so he is in good financial shape, but devotes most of his time to the stage and smaller films.

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Thu May 01, 2014 5:20 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Sexual Chocolate wrote:
KWRoss wrote:
Even if PSH did do MI:3 for the money, it works out well for him or any other actor. Sometimes it's necessary to collect a big paycheck so you can keep making the lower-budgeted, non-box-office-player type of films you really want to make.


This would be my response. Ethan Hawke is known for doing this; he'll take a role in a really shitty movie with a big payday every now and then (like that recent one he did with Selena Gomez) so he is in good financial shape, but devotes most of his time to the stage and smaller films.


And, again, if you phone the "money" performance in it's one thing, but when you provide an action movie with an excellent villain because you're committed to your performance, then you're okay (better than okay) in my book

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Thu May 01, 2014 5:40 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
JamesKunz wrote:
wisey wrote:
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The five films around that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War and Doubt. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other five films.

Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!

The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.


1. Look, buddy, first of all you get angry really easy these days. You might want to take the "chill pill" of which teenagers used to speak.

2. Secondly, selling out involves compromising your artistic integrity. Not just doing something for the money. Philip Seymour Hoffman never condescended to a role. He never phoned in a performance. He never winked at the audience like Bruce Willis. He elevated everything he was in. And so as far as I am concerned, he never sold out. Not even a little bit.


1. Firstly sport, I'm not angry at all. Save your condescending tone for one of your student's who may not agree with you. Actually, I'll play the role of a teenager for a tick to make things a little more straightforward for you. Mr. Kunz, I now know you are right, that PSH never sold out once in his life, because he didn't phone in his performance in M13. I'll change the definition of sold out to what you have in your dictionary. Not phoning in a performance = somebody not selling out.

2. Secondly, the three films I thought he has sold out in were: Along Came Polly, Mission Impossible 3 and The Hunger Games. I don't think I need to go into any more detail as to why I think he took the role in MI3, whether he was good or not in it is a moot point. I think he took the role for the money. You haven't even fucking seen Along Came Polly and can say, "And so far as I'm concerned, he never sold out. Not even a little bit." Perhaps you should try and watch the excellent romantic comedy he played a minor role in (for big bucks) alongside Ben Stiller and Jennifer Aniston to qualify your judgment a little more? Perhaps you don't need too? Perhaps you love the guy so much you'll think he gave his all in that role too, and thus that qualifies him from never selling out, which means never phoning in a performance right?

I love the guy as much as you do, so I don't want to debate this any further. I'll simply agree with what (I think?) someone else meant above; that by taking these roles for big $$$ it made it easier for to him to focus on the work he really wanted too. I don't think his filmography reads of an actor selling out at all, the opposite as a whole. Maybe, just maybe though, he took a few roles for a more primary reason than the performance he could give? In those rare instances, some people may view that selling out to a certain degree.

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Sat May 03, 2014 10:34 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:


1. Firstly sport, I'm not angry at all. Save your condescending tone for one of your student's who may not agree with you. Actually, I'll play the role of a teenager for a tick to make things a little more straightforward for you. Mr. Kunz, I now know you are right, that PSH never sold out once in his life, because he didn't phone in his performance in M13. I'll change the definition of sold out to what you have in your dictionary. Not phoning in a performance = somebody not selling out.


This is not going a long way towards convincing me that you're not angry.

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Sat May 03, 2014 10:42 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Man. Fuckin' Obama, amirite?

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Sat May 03, 2014 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Ken wrote:
Man. Fuckin' Obama, amirite?

eh? :?


Sat May 03, 2014 10:03 pm
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
Vexer wrote:
Shade2 wrote:

Back on topic, I know some people have accused Robert De Niro of selling out when he does certain films(I.E. New Year's Eve, Killer Elite), to me the only film where it felt like he was strictly in "paycheck" mode was "Hide And Seek", and in that case the script was so terrible I can't really blame him for not putting in a very passionate performance.


I take it you haven't seen Meet the Parents and its sequels.


Mon May 05, 2014 1:49 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
dps wrote:
Vexer wrote:
Shade2 wrote:

Back on topic, I know some people have accused Robert De Niro of selling out when he does certain films(I.E. New Year's Eve, Killer Elite), to me the only film where it felt like he was strictly in "paycheck" mode was "Hide And Seek", and in that case the script was so terrible I can't really blame him for not putting in a very passionate performance.


I take it you haven't seen Meet the Parents and its sequels.

Yes I have and it looked De Niro was really enjoying himself in those films.


Mon May 05, 2014 1:52 am
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Post Re: Proof that everyone sells out
wisey wrote:
Fucking hysterical. People are actually convincing themselves on this thread PSH didn't do Mission Impossible 3 for the money. Who would know? The six films surrounding MI3 that he starred in were; Capote, The Savages, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, Charlie Wilson's War, Doubt and Synecdoche, New York. Combine that with MI3 and pick the fucking odd one out? He made more money from his incredible turn in M13 than he did from the other six films.

Just so I'm not getting completely delusional? Didn't Mission Impossible 2 have Tom Cruise flying off a motorcycle whilst fighting someone in mid air as the final climatic highlight? Gees, I'm sure you guys are right. PSH would've watched that and thought, I can bring some proper villainous menace to the next one. I can beat Tom Cruise... kapow - let's go get him! Let's hope it score's well on Rotten Tomatoes so that everyone will know my artistic integrity hasn’t been jeopardized. Who cares if I’m not a James Bond villain, I’ll do the next best thing. Let's go kill Tom!

The guy was a legend, my favorite actor of the last decade. But to believe he wasn't seduced by money in at least a few of the roles he cherry picked seems hard to fathom.


But there's selling out, and selling out.

It's not necessarily a terrible thing for a great actor to play an OTT villain in Mission Impossible if the film is pretty good and you can pay off your mortgage and put little Jimmy through Denist school. I'd do it, and I'm fairly certain you would.

If he'd appeared in a series of 2 and a half men, then there'd be a serious problem.

Sliding scales I guess

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Tue May 06, 2014 5:57 am
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