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Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President 
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I've read them. They don't invalidate anything i've said.

My point is simple - American production is built on a foundation of European culture. Significantly Anglo saxon. Significantly Jewish too. This is fact. If you dilute this base too quickly with less economically developed cultures, you will become poorer. This is simple stuff. What do you think would happen if you brought in 50 million illiterate people, theoretically speaking? Would it make Americans richer, no it would not. Per capita income would fall. Crime would rise. As would ghettoisation, and poverty, and misery.

If you don't see this, then you are quite mad.

You said Anglo-Saxon, period, and you specifically referred to Germany and the U.K. Quit trying to be a slippery eel with me, because it's not going to work.

The American economy has for years had illegal immigrants helping to prop it up courtesy of Mexico and other underdeveloped nations, as they provide cheap labor akin to the "slave labor" you attribute ignorantly to the Chinese economy. They are not the reason behind the current state of the U.S. economy- if anything, they are part of the solution rather than the problem. The U.S. is already plagued by the issues of crime, "ghettoisation", and poverty and has been for decades. Your argument is still racist and at its base ignorant.

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:29 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Ragnarok73 wrote:
The American economy has for years had illegal immigrants helping to prop it up courtesy of Mexico and other underdeveloped nations, as they provide cheap labor akin to the "slave labor" you attribute ignorantly to the Chinese economy. They are not the reason behind the current state of the U.S. economy- if anything, they are part of the solution rather than the problem. The U.S. is already plagued by the issues of crime, "ghettoisation", and poverty and has been for decades. Your argument is still racist and at its base ignorant.


I think that, in some respects, you may be making NotHugh's points. If the US has been "plagued by the issues of crime, 'ghettoisation', and poverty" for decades, while over the past 5 decades we have seen an increase in illegal immigration, and a decrease in the "influence of European values", then aren't you confirming his hypothesis?

One thing you need to do is divorce the concept of "Anglo-Saxon (or European) values" from the "Anglo-Saxon (or European descent) people". I think it is folly to suggest that the American work ethic historically did not derive from the European work ethic...at least on the surface. It probably moreso derives from the nature of the individual "immigrants" themselves and their drive to succeed in a new land. A drive that can wane from one generation to the next.

To say that American values are "Anglo-Saxon" is probably the wrong way to put it. Though, again, it is folly not to acknowledge that the majority of the settlers of this country did indeed come from Europe. And NotHugh HAS cited examples of non-Europeans who have come to this country and thrived, because of their strong work ethic. I wouldn't call that racist; prejudiced in many regards; "culturalist" even (if that's even a word), but not racist.


Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:43 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
I appreciate your attempt to adjudicate, Jonny. But it is doomed to failure.

I’ve come across Ragnorok’s poorly educated, motor-mouthed ilk too many times in the past. A few years ago, as an economics student, I was once called racist for stating that South Korea’s culture is superior to that of North Korea. An accusation that ignored 2 salient truths -

1. North and South Koreas are of the same race. The partition was only erected in 1953.
2. South Korea has a thriving economy, whilst the North periodically resorts to cannibalism and eating grass.

But the “you are racist” argument trumps all rational debate on any given subject. Their stuck-pig squeals are all that count to them. It’s no good point out basic truths and stats on economics, crime, prison population, literacy, ad infinitum – because to do so will be met with deaf ears and cries that you’re a fascist, Hitler- worshipping nutcase, who wants to travel around dressed like a KKK member committing genocide from his pick-up truck.

And as for being culture-ist. Damn straight I am. Take this test – the vote with your feet test! Someone holds a gun to your head and says “pick a Korea to live in”, do you pick North or South – bearing in mind they are genetically the same population.
If you pick the South – I.e. if you pick food above starvation; freedom to vote above compulsion to worship; freedom of conscience above thoughtcrime; freedom of information above censorship … then you my friend are a culture-ist.

The Ragnaroks of the world are ten-a-penny ignoramuses, whose witless life’s work is to derail grown up discussion about important modern problems with their censures cries of bigotry.
They score localised victories in government and academic departments whose entire raison d'être is to deny reality itself. But they will ultimately lose, because facts and the real world (live gravity) have a habit of bringing us back down to earth.

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Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:08 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I appreciate your attempt to adjudicate, Jonny. But it is doomed to failure.

I’ve come across Ragnorok’s poorly educated, motor-mouthed ilk too many times in the past. A few years ago, as an economics student, I was once called racist for stating that South Korea’s culture is superior to that of North Korea. An accusation that ignored 2 salient truths -

1. North and South Koreas are of the same race. The partition was only erected in 1953.
2. South Korea has a thriving economy, whilst the North periodically resorts to cannibalism and eating grass.

But the “you are racist” argument trumps all rational debate on any given subject. Their stuck-pig squeals are all that count to them. It’s no good point out basic truths and stats on economics, crime, prison population, literacy, ad infinitum – because to do so will be met with deaf ears and cries that you’re a fascist, Hitler- worshipping nutcase, who wants to travel around dressed like a KKK member committing genocide from his pick-up truck.

And as for being culture-ist. Damn straight I am. Take this test – the vote with your feet test! Someone holds a gun to your head and says “pick a Korea to live in”, do you pick North or South – bearing in mind they are genetically the same population.
If you pick the South – I.e. if you pick food above starvation; freedom to vote above compulsion to worship; freedom of conscience above thoughtcrime; freedom of information above censorship … then you my friend are a culture-ist.

The Ragnaroks of the world are ten-a-penny ignoramuses, whose witless life’s work is to derail grown up discussion about important modern problems with their censures cries of bigotry.
They score localised victories in government and academic departments whose entire raison d'être is to deny reality itself. But they will ultimately lose, because facts and the real world (live gravity) have a habit of bringing us back down to earth.

The fact that you use "race" as any sort of meaningful indicator of difference within the human species pretty much invalidates your long-winded attempt to discredit my critique of your original statement. It's almost funny, because you made a basic statement that was utterly wrong, and now you're talking about having all sorts of stats to back you up when you haven't provided any at all. There's also the fact that statistics alone don't tell the entire story, since their results can be manipulated into meaning whatever the hell you want.

It's ironic that you call me the ignoramus, since racism is rooted in ignorance. You painted yourself into a corner and have been reduced to using one fallacious argument after another to try to get out. I've realized at this point that arguing with you on this topic is pretty pointless, so I'm going to stop.

You have a right to your opinion, no matter how ignorant it is. I am betting, however, that you're only stating it here where you have the safety of anonymity while keeping it well to yourself in the outside world where you likely see plenty of fellow British citizens who are not of European ancestry.

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Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:16 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
You haven't shown me to be wrong anywhere.

You have no argument, only variations of the "you racist" argument. Tedium

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Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
You haven't shown me to be wrong anywhere.

You have no argument, only variations of the "you racist" argument. Tedium

Time to do with you what I imagine the rest of your fellow Brits do- ignore you. Permanently.

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Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
So you have no actual argument at all.

Jolly good

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Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:11 pm
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
NotHughGrant wrote:
I never mentioned racial superiority anywhere for the simple fact that I don't think there is any evidence for it. I mentioned that some cultures are more successful than others, regardless of race.

The Japanese for a long time had a more productive culture than the Europeans, for instance.

So, a hearty fuck you, you lying bastard!


I applaud that you appear to feel offended by the notion that you have made a racist statement. Yet, even though you don’t consider yourself a racist, it doesn’t change the nature and content of your statement. Stating that one ethnicity or race is superior to another either in a specific field or in general is a racist statement, because it is a qualitative distinction based on ethnicity/race. Racism doesn’t require that you are a “Hitler-worshipping nutcase, who wants to travel around dressed like a KKK member committing genocide from his pick-up truck”, as you have put it.
Let’s take a look at your actual statement

You write that “Anglo-Saxon culture” made the U.S. the richest nation in the world and, if it were diluted, so would the U.S. wealth and power. You further state that there are things other cultures, in your example Latino culture, do better, but that it is the descendants of the British and Germans, who “keep the wheels of industry turning”. In a subsequent posts, you state that (the descendants of) Europeans and Jews create the bulk of wealth in America.

If used precisely, “Anglo-Saxon culture” would refer to the culture of the Germanic tribes which migrated to Britain in the 5th century A.D. That culture ceased to exist with the Danish and Norman conquests (Battle of Hastings, 1066 AD). That wouldn’t make sense in the context of your statement.

Sometimes, the term “Anglo-Saxon economy” is used in contrast to what can be decribed as “social market economy” or “Rhine capitalism”, to describe capitalist economic systems, which put great emphasis on the deregulation of markets, and to distinguish them from the (rather similar) economic systems of Continental European nations such as Germany. However, this distiction is relatively new and was only made from the 1970ies or 1980ies on and wouldn’t explain the U.S. rise to being the wealthiest nation in the world, which happened in the 1950ies and 1960ies. Also, it wouldn’t explain the relative economic success of countries such as the Netherlands or Germany.

So what do you mean by “Anglo-Saxon culture”? You refer to it as “European” and distinguish it from “Latin cultures” as well as Jewish culture. You include the descendants of British and German immigrants, presumably also of immigrants from other North/Central European countries, but not all European immigrants such as presumably those from Slavic countries (Poles, Russians etc.) and definitively those from Latin countries (Italians, Spanish etc.). However, while there are similar cultural traits in Scandianvia, Germany and Britain, they are also very different cultures and don’t share the same languages or religion, for instance. You cannot group them together under an “Anglo-Saxon culture”.

So what does “Anglo-Saxon culture” mean? You use is synonymously for descendants of North/Central Europeans, i.e. pertaining to their ethnicity, such as in the term “WASP” (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). That is a racial distiction, irrespective of whether you embelish it by referring to “culture”. In other words: Your statement is racist, whether you realise it or not.

While I’m at it: You call your statement a fact, which nobody here has refuted yet. However, calling it a fact doesn’t make it so the statement that “Anglo-Saxon culture” is responsible for the U.S.’s prosperity is a hypothesis and may be a conclusion based on fact, but you haven’t provided any corresponding data yet.


Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:56 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Unke wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
I never mentioned racial superiority anywhere for the simple fact that I don't think there is any evidence for it. I mentioned that some cultures are more successful than others, regardless of race.

The Japanese for a long time had a more productive culture than the Europeans, for instance.

So, a hearty fuck you, you lying bastard!


I applaud that you appear to feel offended by the notion that you have made a racist statement. Yet, even though you don’t consider yourself a racist, it doesn’t change the nature and content of your statement. Stating that one ethnicity or race is superior to another either in a specific field or in general is a racist statement, because it is a qualitative distinction based on ethnicity/race. Racism doesn’t require that you are a “Hitler-worshipping nutcase, who wants to travel around dressed like a KKK member committing genocide from his pick-up truck”, as you have put it.
Let’s take a look at your actual statement

You write that “Anglo-Saxon culture” made the U.S. the richest nation in the world and, if it were diluted, so would the U.S. wealth and power. You further state that there are things other cultures, in your example Latino culture, do better, but that it is the descendants of the British and Germans, who “keep the wheels of industry turning”. In a subsequent posts, you state that (the descendants of) Europeans and Jews create the bulk of wealth in America.

If used precisely, “Anglo-Saxon culture” would refer to the culture of the Germanic tribes which migrated to Britain in the 5th century A.D. That culture ceased to exist with the Danish and Norman conquests (Battle of Hastings, 1066 AD). That wouldn’t make sense in the context of your statement.

Sometimes, the term “Anglo-Saxon economy” is used in contrast to what can be decribed as “social market economy” or “Rhine capitalism”, to describe capitalist economic systems, which put great emphasis on the deregulation of markets, and to distinguish them from the (rather similar) economic systems of Continental European nations such as Germany. However, this distiction is relatively new and was only made from the 1970ies or 1980ies on and wouldn’t explain the U.S. rise to being the wealthiest nation in the world, which happened in the 1950ies and 1960ies. Also, it wouldn’t explain the relative economic success of countries such as the Netherlands or Germany.

So what do you mean by “Anglo-Saxon culture”? You refer to it as “European” and distinguish it from “Latin cultures” as well as Jewish culture. You include the descendants of British and German immigrants, presumably also of immigrants from other North/Central European countries, but not all European immigrants such as presumably those from Slavic countries (Poles, Russians etc.) and definitively those from Latin countries (Italians, Spanish etc.). However, while there are similar cultural traits in Scandianvia, Germany and Britain, they are also very different cultures and don’t share the same languages or religion, for instance. You cannot group them together under an “Anglo-Saxon culture”.

So what does “Anglo-Saxon culture” mean? You use is synonymously for descendants of North/Central Europeans, i.e. pertaining to their ethnicity, such as in the term “WASP” (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). That is a racial distiction, irrespective of whether you embelish it by referring to “culture”. In other words: Your statement is racist, whether you realise it or not.

While I’m at it: You call your statement a fact, which nobody here has refuted yet. However, calling it a fact doesn’t make it so the statement that “Anglo-Saxon culture” is responsible for the U.S.’s prosperity is a hypothesis and may be a conclusion based on fact, but you haven’t provided any corresponding data yet.



I recognise completely your Italian Army-esq retreat into semantics - hoping to narrow the term anglo-saxon down to the point where it becomes almost meaningless. But let's start with this -

Quote:
Stating that one ethnicity or race is superior to another either in a specific field or in general is a racist statement,


Even if it's true? What if I say that East Africans make better long distance runners than Celtic Scots?

What if I say that the enrollment into Harvard's Math 55 class had a hugely, ethnically disproportinate number of Jews and Asians? What then?

If you doubt me, check the starting block on the next 100 metres dash at the Olympic finals.

Kind of rubbishes your point really doesn't it?

Quote:
You write that “Anglo-Saxon culture” made the U.S. the richest nation in the world and, if it were diluted, so would the U.S. wealth and power. You further state that there are things other cultures, in your example Latino culture, do better, but that it is the descendants of the British and Germans, who “keep the wheels of industry turning”. In a subsequent posts, you state that (the descendants of) Europeans and Jews create the bulk of wealth in America.


Yes I did. And I stand by it. Just like I stand by the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun.

The wealth of the USA is no different to the wealth of most western nations. It's built on certain foundations. Enlightemnment principles, the rule of law, literature, commercial use of math, science, technology, sewage systems that flush away dangerous diseases, liquid finance that allows for rapid investment, highly organised and eventually industrialised agriculture. Factories, ship building, flight, google and so on and so on.

Want guess where most of these things came from and who built them? Or more to the point, where they didn't come from and who did not build them?

Just like Ragnarok before you, you don't come at me with arguments, you come with slogans, with dictotorials of what is PC to say and think, and what is not.

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:58 am
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Post Re: Travon Martin, Racial Tensions, and our President
Unke wrote:
NotHughGrant wrote:
I never mentioned racial superiority anywhere for the simple fact that I don't think there is any evidence for it. I mentioned that some cultures are more successful than others, regardless of race.

The Japanese for a long time had a more productive culture than the Europeans, for instance.

So, a hearty fuck you, you lying bastard!


I applaud that you appear to feel offended by the notion that you have made a racist statement. Yet, even though you don’t consider yourself a racist, it doesn’t change the nature and content of your statement. Stating that one ethnicity or race is superior to another either in a specific field or in general is a racist statement, because it is a qualitative distinction based on ethnicity/race. Racism doesn’t require that you are a “Hitler-worshipping nutcase, who wants to travel around dressed like a KKK member committing genocide from his pick-up truck”, as you have put it.
Let’s take a look at your actual statement

You write that “Anglo-Saxon culture” made the U.S. the richest nation in the world and, if it were diluted, so would the U.S. wealth and power. You further state that there are things other cultures, in your example Latino culture, do better, but that it is the descendants of the British and Germans, who “keep the wheels of industry turning”. In a subsequent posts, you state that (the descendants of) Europeans and Jews create the bulk of wealth in America.

If used precisely, “Anglo-Saxon culture” would refer to the culture of the Germanic tribes which migrated to Britain in the 5th century A.D. That culture ceased to exist with the Danish and Norman conquests (Battle of Hastings, 1066 AD). That wouldn’t make sense in the context of your statement.

Sometimes, the term “Anglo-Saxon economy” is used in contrast to what can be decribed as “social market economy” or “Rhine capitalism”, to describe capitalist economic systems, which put great emphasis on the deregulation of markets, and to distinguish them from the (rather similar) economic systems of Continental European nations such as Germany. However, this distiction is relatively new and was only made from the 1970ies or 1980ies on and wouldn’t explain the U.S. rise to being the wealthiest nation in the world, which happened in the 1950ies and 1960ies. Also, it wouldn’t explain the relative economic success of countries such as the Netherlands or Germany.

So what do you mean by “Anglo-Saxon culture”? You refer to it as “European” and distinguish it from “Latin cultures” as well as Jewish culture. You include the descendants of British and German immigrants, presumably also of immigrants from other North/Central European countries, but not all European immigrants such as presumably those from Slavic countries (Poles, Russians etc.) and definitively those from Latin countries (Italians, Spanish etc.). However, while there are similar cultural traits in Scandianvia, Germany and Britain, they are also very different cultures and don’t share the same languages or religion, for instance. You cannot group them together under an “Anglo-Saxon culture”.

So what does “Anglo-Saxon culture” mean? You use is synonymously for descendants of North/Central Europeans, i.e. pertaining to their ethnicity, such as in the term “WASP” (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). That is a racial distiction, irrespective of whether you embelish it by referring to “culture”. In other words: Your statement is racist, whether you realise it or not.

While I’m at it: You call your statement a fact, which nobody here has refuted yet. However, calling it a fact doesn’t make it so the statement that “Anglo-Saxon culture” is responsible for the U.S.’s prosperity is a hypothesis and may be a conclusion based on fact, but you haven’t provided any corresponding data yet.

I think you'll find that you're wasting your time. Let the man live in his little corner with his notions of racial superiority and the knowledge that people sharing his viewpoint are being marginalized as education improves (well except perhaps in the U.S.).

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Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:34 pm
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