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Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse? 
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Why don't we let someone more objective decide.


People can weigh in as they like of course but I'd say that the decision to respond with little more than an obscenity is admission of defeat ;)

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Fri May 13, 2011 9:17 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
firefly wrote:
Those are abstractions, I am proposing something concrete.


Concrete my ass.

You want to bully people into making the right decision, instead of teaching them about making wiser decisions. Your curing the headache by cutting off the head.


You missed the edit.

I'm surprised that someone who touts themselves as a libertarian is implying that we need the government to step into peoples lives and threaten them into making better decisions.


Fri May 13, 2011 9:21 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
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You want to bully people into making the right decision, instead of teaching them about making wiser decisions. Your curing the headache by cutting off the head.


The issue is that they are making decisions that do substantial permanent damage to other people, namely their children. Do you support permitting parents to lock their children in a basement and feed them dog food for the first ten years of their life? My guess is that you want the state to bully them into making decisions that will not do long term damage to their children.

The State sees fit to educate people to make better decisions about themselves--hence the public campaigns against smoking (which aren't exactly effective). It sees fit to bully people into not harming others.

Personally, I think it'd be better to rethink the whole notion of welfare, which currently encourages irresponsible and low-educated people to reproduce at significantly higher rates than higher-educated people. That's an entirely different matter. We are discussing the dispersion of state funds to people, and the state regularly sets guidelines which people must live within if they expect to continue to receive benefits. I do not see where not putting your child at risk of significant permanent disabilities should not be one of them.

Quote:

I'm surprised that someone who touts themselves as a libertarian is implying that we need the government to step into peoples lives and threaten them into making better decisions.


Most libertarians acknowledge the necessity of the State to have a functional legal code that protects private property and safety.

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Fri May 13, 2011 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
firefly wrote:
The issue is that they are making decisions that do substantial permanent damage to other people, namely their children.


This brings us back to fetus vs. child. And I've already stated that I think women smoking/drinking while pregnant is deplorable. But I doubt the answer is bullying the ignorant instead of teaching them.

The state didn't have to bully me against harming other people. I figured out that was wrong all on my own. Incredible, huh?

Your whole outlook on the impoverished is warped and disgusting. But that's an entirely different debate.


Fri May 13, 2011 9:39 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
This brings us back to fetus vs. child. And I've already stated that I think women smoking/drinking while pregnant is deplorable. But I doubt the answer is bullying the ignorant instead of teaching them.


I highly doubt that there are any women who are not informed that drinking or smoking is very harmful to their child. So I have no clue what you mean by "teaching" them. Do you want them to take a class? Pass an exam? What do you mean?

Again, we "bully" people all of the time. In order to receive various government benefits, people must meet certain conditions. If they fail to meet the conditions, they may not receive the benefits. So why should this be any different?

And why shouldn't we bully people into not causing their children irreversible long-term disabilities? Do you want to permit a parent to chain their child to a cellar post and feed them cat food for the first ten years of their lives? Or should the state intervene? You speak of fetus vs. child but this is invalid because the consequences extend not only into childhood but adulthood, so it is very much about protecting the person. Aborting the child prevents him or her from being born, it does not affect his or her life after exiting the womb. Drinking and smoking affects the offspring through the entire life.

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I figured out that was wrong all on my own. Incredible, huh?


Not relevant.
("I never killed anyone so we don't need laws against murder") It's essentially a solipsism.

I find it a bit odd that you react viscerally to the observation that welfare encourages lower-educated, irresponsible people to reproduce at a higher rate when you spoke vaguely of population control early in the thread.

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Fri May 13, 2011 9:47 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
firefly wrote:
Those are abstractions, I am proposing something concrete.


Concrete my ass.


Come on, Timmy. You can disagree with his idea, you can say it would do more harm than good, you can say it's a lousy idea. Pick any of those stances (or another altogether) and that's more than fine. But it's absolutely a concrete idea. Your notion of "let's educate" had been spouted in this exact debate for decades. The model being used hasn't worked. Until you've offered a specific method of education beyond "school and hospitals" (which has been done for years), your idea is abstract and his is concrete. As I've said, I side more with you on how to deal with it, but to say that his idea isn't concrete is akin to saying the sky isn't blue.

Also, cut the name calling. If you guys want to compare dicks go on Skype.


Fri May 13, 2011 11:40 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Shade wrote:
Also, cut the name calling. If you guys want to compare dicks go on Skype.

Heyyyy now I'm not calling names :x

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Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Has cannabis prohibition done anything to sway the rate of people smoking it? Ya, I thought so.


I think there definitely would be more people smoking weed if it wasn't illegal. It's kind of a hard thing to talk about since we don't know exactly what would happen if the US suddenly made it legal. Still, I'm curious about how you explain a place like Amsterdam then.

firefly wrote:
I highly doubt that there are any women who are not informed that drinking or smoking is very harmful to their child.


The woman I brought up in my first post once asked a friend "so like, is smoking while pregnant bad for the baby?"

Maybe she was a special exception, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if a decent number of people don't know how bad smoking while pregnant is.


Sat May 14, 2011 12:37 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
AJR wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Has cannabis prohibition done anything to sway the rate of people smoking it? Ya, I thought so.


I think there definitely would be more people smoking weed if it wasn't illegal. It's kind of a hard thing to talk about since we don't know exactly what would happen if the US suddenly made it legal. Still, I'm curious about how you explain a place like Amsterdam then.


The data suggests that people in Amsterdam not only smoke less weed per capita, but also consume less of other harder drugs.

Moreover, the rate of Cannabis use in the United States has only climbed since it became illegal.

The forbidden fruit tastes much sweeter.

AJR wrote:
firefly wrote:
I highly doubt that there are any women who are not informed that drinking or smoking is very harmful to their child.


The woman I brought up in my first post once asked a friend "so like, is smoking while pregnant bad for the baby?"

Maybe she was a special exception, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if a decent number of people don't know how bad smoking while pregnant is.


How is suggesting that there aren't people who aren't aware of the harmfulness of smoking whilst pregnant not solipsism? Moreover, there are those who know it's bad, but not exactly HOW bad.

firefly wrote:
I find it a bit odd that you react viscerally to the observation that welfare encourages lower-educated, irresponsible people to reproduce at a higher rate when you spoke vaguely of population control early in the thread.


You don't know the half. It if was up to me, I'd exterminate the entire race, including myself. Hitler had the right idea, he was just an underachiever. Why stop at Jews? Kill 'em all.


Last edited by Timmy Shoes on Sat May 14, 2011 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat May 14, 2011 1:12 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Also, fetus vs. child IS relevant because it boils down to the fact that it's the WOMAN'S BODY. Her body, her child, her choice.

Also, if a woman IS educated, and still chooses to smoke, what can be done? Lock her in a room until she overcomes her withdrawal symptoms? >.>

I brought up nicotine patches, and AJ thought up of a program that gave free patches to nicotine-addicted woman. Is that not a concrete idea?


Sat May 14, 2011 1:17 am
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
AJR wrote:

The woman I brought up in my first post once asked a friend "so like, is smoking while pregnant bad for the baby?"

Maybe she was a special exception, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if a decent number of people don't know how bad smoking while pregnant is.


That may be a retention issue--stupid people retain less information than smart people and need to be reminded more often.

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Sat May 14, 2011 9:37 am
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Also, fetus vs. child IS relevant because it boils down to the fact that it's the WOMAN'S BODY. Her body, her child, her choice.


If she has the right to cause lifelong disabilities to her child, then why shouldn't parents have the right to chain their kid to a post in their basement and feed them cat food?

Quote:
Also, if a woman IS educated, and still chooses to smoke, what can be done? Lock her in a room until she overcomes her withdrawal symptoms? >.>


I am proposing that the state takes measures to reduce the number of incidents, not attempt to stamp them out altogether. This of course could be done by simply removing children from the mother at birth if the mother has tested positive for alcohol or cigarettes. But that may be going a bit far. Removing government benefits that they don't deserve anyway sounds right to me.
Quote:
I brought up nicotine patches, and AJ thought up of a program that gave free patches to nicotine-addicted woman. Is that not a concrete idea?


Except that giving something to someone for free assigns no value to it and leads to it not being used. This has been shown in a number of examples, such as agriculture equipment in Sub-Saharan Africa. If you want people to value something, charge them for it. Otherwise it will not get used. The notion that free nicotine patches would work presupposes that these women want to quit but are financially unable to. This is absurd. Nicotine patches cost less than most smokers spend on their cigarettes; it would be financially more efficient to buy the patches instead. Women don't ignore the patch when it is not financially within reach, they do so when they don't have the desire to do so. Throwing something at them isn't going to change that. You have to change their payoffs, and the way to do that is to leverage the benefits that they receive from the state.

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Sat May 14, 2011 9:44 am
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
As usual with these debates we see an element of entrenchment and religion and a worrying lack of common sense.

I am constantly amazed at the stupidity of people. Every wek I do rescue work for German Shepherds. It's a source of sadness how rarely the dogs are the problem. The attitudes and behavior of fellow humans invariably is. people get dogs and neglect or mistreat them terribly.

Now I turn to children.

Why should it surprise me that the same species would mistreat their offspring? Why would it surprise me that someone might argue that it's the rights of the individual.

In years of dealing with dogs I have never seen a parent attack or abuse it's pups. Give them corrections, quite harshly for sure, but abuse? Never.

But we are the "superior" species. Or are we?

Rob


Sat May 14, 2011 12:48 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
firefly wrote:
If she has the right to cause lifelong disabilities to her child, then why shouldn't parents have the right to chain their kid to a post in their basement and feed them cat food?


Because the child wouldn't be INSIDE THE WOMAN'S BODY. That's the kicker, that's what you seem to be ignoring.

firefly wrote:
Except that giving something to someone for free assigns no value to it and leads to it not being used. This has been shown in a number of examples, such as agriculture equipment in Sub-Saharan Africa. If you want people to value something, charge them for it. Otherwise it will not get used. The notion that free nicotine patches would work presupposes that these women want to quit but are financially unable to. This is absurd. Nicotine patches cost less than most smokers spend on their cigarettes; it would be financially more efficient to buy the patches instead. Women don't ignore the patch when it is not financially within reach, they do so when they don't have the desire to do so. Throwing something at them isn't going to change that. You have to change their payoffs, and the way to do that is to leverage the benefits that they receive from the state.


First off, comparing nicotine patches to farming equipment is just plain nonsensical. Secondly, the notion does not presuppose financial inability; it's purpose would be to make the woman more likely to actually use the patches instead of going out and buying cigarettes. Your "if it's free they won't use it" hypothesis is complete bullshit. If a woman gets free patches from her doctor, whose imploring her to use them instead of smoking, I doubt she's not going to use them because she can't recognize the "value" in something that's free.

Thirdly, your acting as if the education and awareness programs that are already in effect have done nothing. That's moronic, considering the prevalence of the problem has decreased DRAMATICALLY over the years. Of course, there are always going to be those one or two idiots who continue to smoke whilst pregnant, but your "solutions" would only create more problems.

Fourthly, you're assuming that every single woman who chooses to smoke or drink while pregnant is poor and uneducated, another fallacy. Depression is a powerful incentive to cause damage to your own body (and in this case, the body of a woman's fetus) and it is a problem that all walks of life encounter, poor and rich and stupid and smart alike.


Sat May 14, 2011 4:14 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Robert Holloway wrote:
But we are the "superior" species. Or are we?

There are some members of humanity that I'd rate lower than bacteria on the evolutionary scale. Unfortunately, not enough of them are being weeded out by natural selection.


Sat May 14, 2011 5:41 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
We are certainly the dominant species, which is damning with faint praise. The previous owners of the title had brains the size of walnuts.


Sat May 14, 2011 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Because the child wouldn't be INSIDE THE WOMAN'S BODY. That's the kicker, that's what you seem to be ignoring.


The action in question affects the child when it is no longer in the woman's body, so there is functionally no difference in terms of the actual impact. If the action in question only affected the child when the child was not granted full rights, then you would have a point, but since the effect is lifelong, this is not valid.


Quote:
First off, comparing nicotine patches to farming equipment is just plain nonsensical.


Both are scarce resources.

Quote:
Secondly, the notion does not presuppose financial inability; it's purpose would be to make the woman more likely to actually use the patches instead of going out and buying cigarettes.


So how precisely would it change the demand curve?

Quote:
Your "if it's free they won't use it" hypothesis is complete bullshit. If a woman gets free patches from her doctor, whose imploring her to use them instead of smoking, I doubt she's not going to use them because she can't recognize the "value" in something that's free.


She's not going to use them because she doesn't value them, and giving them to her for free does not create value. Think of something that you have no use for. Then imagine that someone gives you a bunch of it for free. You're not going to use it, because you have no demand for it. The only way you will use it is if your actual demand for it shifts. You are failing to think economically and instead relying on tired old tropes that have long been disproven.

Quote:
Thirdly, your acting as if the education and awareness programs that are already in effect have done nothing. That's moronic, considering the prevalence of the problem has decreased DRAMATICALLY over the years. Of course, there are always going to be those one or two idiots who continue to smoke whilst pregnant,


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16340460

Key except:
Quote:
CONCLUSION:

The prevalence and pattern of early pregnancy alcohol consumption in this sample of Latinas is similar to patterns noted in other race/ethnic groups in the U.S. Level of knowledge about FAS and awareness of warning messages was not protective for early pregnancy alcohol consumption, suggesting that specific knowledge was insufficient to prevent exposure or that other factors reinforce maintenance of alcohol consumption in early pregnancy. Selective interventions in low-income Latinas are warranted, and should be focused on women of reproductive age who are binge or frequent drinkers and who are at risk of becoming pregnant.


So much for your education notion.

Quote:
but your "solutions" would only create more problems.


How?

Quote:
Fourthly, you're assuming that every single woman who chooses to smoke or drink while pregnant is poor and uneducated, another fallacy. Depression is a powerful incentive to cause damage to your own body (and in this case, the body of a woman's fetus) and it is a problem that all walks of life encounter, poor and rich and stupid and smart alike.


I am not saying that all women who smoke or drink while pregnant are poor and uneducated. I am saying that significantly more poorer people do. Two facts:
1) Women who are on welfare give birth at a rate 3 times the national average (http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p20-558.pdf)
2) Smoking is negatively associated with income (meaning the less you make, the more you smoke) (http://www.gallup.com/poll/105550/among ... eases.aspx) The same holds for alcohol use and abuse.

Therefore, there is naturally a significantly higher rate of alcohol and cigarette usage among poorer people, particularly those on welfare, than better-off people.

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Sat May 14, 2011 5:58 pm
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