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Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse? 
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Post Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
I say it is. The other day I saw a woman puffing on a cigarette while waiting on the bus and I had to resist the urge to yell at her for her stupidity. :evil: :!:

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Thu May 12, 2011 7:47 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
This probably boils down to personal freedoms. Do I think it's wrong? Absolutely. But I don't think criminalizing the action would solve anything. Women have the right to suck out their unborn fetus with a vacuum cleaner, and they also have the right to give their child birth defects and complications.

It really is shameful though. She should be on a patch...hell, even dipping or chewing tobacco would be less harmful to the fetus. I don't think having one beer or a glass of wine is an issue, unless the pregnant woman is binge drinking.

People do stupid things. We've really developed into a mindless society...I'm waiting for George Romero to stand up on a soap box and yell "I TOLD YOU SO!!"


Thu May 12, 2011 8:25 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
This probably boils down to personal freedoms. Do I think it's wrong? Absolutely. But I don't think criminalizing the action would solve anything. Women have the right to suck out their unborn fetus with a vacuum cleaner, and they also have the right to give their child birth defects and complications.


At the point at which they've decided to keep the child, though, do they not have a responsibility? Looking at it another way, if a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman, he is often charged with a crime for killing the unborn child. So there is some legal recognition of the value of the life in the womb--thus even if we maintain a society with legalized abortion, you can conceivably have certain restrictions. Smoking and drinking cause life-long ailments for the children unfortunate enough to be born to utter morons.

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Thu May 12, 2011 8:33 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
It should absolutely be criminal to knowingly and intentionally risk the health of a baby in the womb.


Thu May 12, 2011 8:35 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
I'm not condoning it by any stretch of the imagination. It's deplorable. But criminalizing it wouldn't solve anything. Involuntary manslaughter of a fetus is not tantamount to giving it birth defects. It's still the woman's body, it's still her choice.

I know I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but there are much worse things in the world. The globe is already overpopulated, so losing a few babies to retarded mothers who want to damage their child isn't going to be that detrimental to society in the long run.

I also think it's important to note that pretty much prior to the 90's, smoking while pregnant was a norm. It's not as if humanity is at risk here. Life will go on, no matter how many retarded women choose to damage their babies.


Thu May 12, 2011 9:24 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
I know I'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but there are much worse things in the world. The globe is already overpopulated, so losing a few babies to retarded mothers who want to damage their child isn't going to be that detrimental to society in the long run.


I'm not going to give you heat and I'll resist the urge to assume you're trying to catch heat here. Your idea is the definition of a slippery slope so we'll just move on for now.

I agree with you that criminalizing it won't solve it, and for the record I don't think that the criminalization of anything solves anything. But rightly or wrongly it at least has the capability of making people think -- and since we're dealing with innocent children here I'm willing to error on the side of caution.


Thu May 12, 2011 9:33 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
The only real way to resolve this issue is through education. But even education won't completely eradicate it; there are always going to be those choice few who make the despicable decision to continue to smoke (or binge drink) while pregnant.

P.S. I'm not intentionally seeking heat. Nobody ever gives me the benefit of the doubt >.<


Thu May 12, 2011 9:37 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
The only real way to resolve this issue is through education. But even education won't completely eradicate it; there are always going to be those choice few who make the despicable decision to continue to smoke (or binge drink) while pregnant.


Agreed. But the fact that education will not solve everything is not a reason to not educate. I'm not saying this is you, but too often that's the excuse people offer in situations like this.


Thu May 12, 2011 9:40 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
My mum, who has been smoking on and off for pretty much her whole adult life, stopped smoking while she was pregnant with me and did the same for my brother. How she was able to curb the habit for that long and yet still returned to smoking for the years in between is something I’ll never quite understand, but I’m glad she did it.

I do know one person who continued to drink and smoke (weed and cigarettes!) while pregnant. I’m not friends with her, but I did see her at a party once, complaining about how everyone was telling her she shouldn’t be drinking. Her children, luckily, turned out fine (although I worry about the way they’re being brought up) but I have a lot of contempt for that woman.

I’d also want to see more education for things like this. It won’t solve the problem (and to be fair, nothing will solve it completely) but anything that can help reduce it would be great.

And yes Timmy, there are more pressing issues in the world right now, but that’s such a dismissive statement to make. You’ve bitched about much less.


Thu May 12, 2011 9:58 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
AJR wrote:
My mum, who has been smoking on and off for pretty much her whole adult life, stopped smoking while she was pregnant with me and did the same for my brother. How she was able to curb the habit for that long and yet still returned to smoking for the years in between is something I’ll never quite understand, but I’m glad she did it.

I do know one person who continued to drink and smoke (weed and cigarettes!) while pregnant. I’m not friends with her, but I did see her at a party once, complaining about how everyone was telling her she shouldn’t be drinking. Her children, luckily, turned out fine (although I worry about the way they’re being brought up) but I have a lot of contempt for that woman.

I’d also want to see more education for things like this. It won’t solve the problem (and to be fair, nothing will solve it completely) but anything that can help reduce it would be great.

And yes Timmy, there are more pressing issues in the world right now, but that’s such a dismissive statement to make. You’ve bitched about much less.


That is true. If we accepted the observation that "there are more pressing issues in the world" as a means to ignore a given problem then we would ignore every problem except the single most pressing problem in the world (whatever that may be), as that statement could be made about every other problem.

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Thu May 12, 2011 10:05 pm
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Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
You guys are taking what I said a little too far. The globe IS overpopulated, and cigarettes or not, there are going to be sick babies. Yes, it's sad, but we can't march around arresting every woman who lights up when she's pregnant. I'm not saying the issue should be ignored. What I am saying is that education is the only means of preventing such atrocities from occurring, and even with said education, it will not completely eradicate the problem. Therefore, we must all eventually come to terms with the sad reality.


Thu May 12, 2011 10:10 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
The globe IS overpopulated, and cigarettes or not, there are going to be sick babies.


True, but a baby who happens to be born with some form of defect is simply not the same as a baby born with a defect due to willful choices of the mother.

The earth's population has nothing to do with this discussion. Nothing at all.

Timmy Shoes wrote:
Yes, it's sad, but we can't march around arresting every woman who lights up when she's pregnant.


No one's saying that. Some form of penalty to accompany education that we all acknowledge won't solve everything wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. For me, some form of criminal penalty for those who repeatedly endanger their children would make some amount of sense for the safety of children.

Timmy Shoes wrote:
What I am saying is that education is the only means of preventing such atrocities from occurring, and even with said education, it will not completely eradicate the problem. Therefore, we must all eventually come to terms with the sad reality.


Everyone agrees with this and has said so. None of that is an excuse to do nothing about the problem that we know exists.


Thu May 12, 2011 10:24 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
You guys are taking what I said a little too far. The globe IS overpopulated, and cigarettes or not, there are going to be sick babies. Yes, it's sad, but we can't march around arresting every woman who lights up when she's pregnant. I'm not saying the issue should be ignored. What I am saying is that education is the only means of preventing such atrocities from occurring, and even with said education, it will not completely eradicate the problem. Therefore, we must all eventually come to terms with the sad reality.


I’m glad you’ve looked at the problem long enough to know that education is the only answer…

I mean honestly; you’re brushing this away without putting much thought into it. Is education absolutely the only way to curb this problem? Could there be some sort of incentive program put in place? You said in your first post that they should be on patches. Should such a thing be offered for free or for a discount to help pregnant women to stop smoking?

And if education really is the answer, then when and where should this take place? There’s a discussion to be had here, so I don’t understand why you’re being dismissive like this. Hell, let’s not forget that firefly’s first post was pretty open. You’re the one who steered the thread in this direction :?

And stop talking about the world population. Of course it’s a bigger problem, but if you want to discuss that, create a thread for it. I don’t think the world should stop focusing on (relatively) smaller problems just because bigger problems exist.


Thu May 12, 2011 11:00 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
You're mistaking my disposition to value human life less than the more average person for being dismissive. I've already stated, multiple times, that it's not an issue to be ignored. So I'm not sure why people are assuming my stance is to do nothing about it. I still believe it comes down to personal freedoms, though I think educating the public would lessen the extent of the damage. That's what it has to be about; damage control.


Thu May 12, 2011 11:40 pm
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
You're mistaking my disposition to value human life less than the more average person for being dismissive.

I'd say that's the reason why you're being dismissive.

Timmy Shoes wrote:
I've already stated, multiple times, that it's not an issue to be ignored. So I'm not sure why people are assuming my stance is to do nothing about it.

No one does. I don't think you want to ignore the problem outright, I'm saying that by bringing in larger issues to compare it to you’re trying to make the argument at hand seem meagre. That's still being dismissive.

Timmy Shoes wrote:
I still believe it comes down to personal freedoms, though I think educating the public would lessen the extent of the damage. That's what it has to be about; damage control.

We all agree about education and I’m a strong believer in personal freedoms too, but even I think we can dig a little deeper than that. I brought up the idea of other forms of damage control in my last post. Things that wouldn't infringe upon personal freedoms. What say you?


Fri May 13, 2011 12:21 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Somebody that I went to high school got pregnant around last year, last year-and-a-half. She was venting on a facebook note about 10 things she learned while pregnant and one of them was as long as the doctor says you can still smoke while you're pregnant, albeit not as much, the baby will be fine so just smile and nod when people say you shouldn't smoke.

The baby seems to be fine so either what we know about medical science is wrong or she was seeing a quack. I'd lean towards the latter.


Fri May 13, 2011 6:14 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
I'm in the Uk where the government makes billions out of taxing cigarettes and sticks "This will kill you" on the packages
It's hypocrisy.

People here seem to smoke more than in California
It's stupidity

As for her, she may get a problem with her child
and spend the rest of her life complaining about it
and we will end up paying for it

Rob


Fri May 13, 2011 7:54 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
Robert Holloway wrote:
People here seem to smoke more than in California
It's stupidity


Rob...what is the current state of public smoking laws in the UK? I know California has been smoke free in restaurants and bars for many years. Our state put in a ban last year. Does UK have similar laws about smoking in public places? Could be you just notice it less in CA due to this. I believe that the smoking rates are going down in developed nations and are rising in developing nations. I sold my stock in Phillip Morris when I'd heard that Irish pubs and French cafe's were going smoke free. If you can't smoke in those 2 places, then the writing's on the wall (IMO).

As far as the pregnancy and smoking thing goes, I have 3 kids and my wife's doctor told her "no" to smoking and "ok" to an occasional drink (my wife pretty much abstained from both; we are not smokers and are moderate drinkers). If a doctor tells a patient that it's OK to smoke (pregnant or otherwise), I would look for a new doctor. The PSA's on the negative effects of smoking and pregancy have been around for 30 years; I can't think of anyone who hasn't heard this. Anyone who smokes while pregnant (I'll throw fathers in there with second hand smoke as well) is either too weak willed to quit, or too selfish.

I'm sure that birth defects from smoking happen in a very small minority of cases (given the incidence of smoking and pregancy in early 20th Century); but why would you even take that chance nowadays?


Last edited by johnny larue on Fri May 13, 2011 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 13, 2011 8:55 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
firefly wrote:
At the point at which they've decided to keep the child, though, do they not have a responsibility?


I think this question gets to the crux of the debate. Similar to the abortion issue, the question isn't really about personal freedoms. Sure, the talking heads will debate pro-choice and pro-life all day long and until they're blue in the face, but none of that stuff holds much weight when it comes to determining the legal definition of abortion. At what point does a woman have a responsibility to the child she is carrying? When it becomes a human being seems to be the common sense answer (and generally accepted one), but exactly when is that?

The same sort of logic can be applied to the question posed by firefly in this thread. If a woman has decided to keep the child, the instant it becomes a human being is when she has a responsibility to care for it. Now, I'm not a doctor or a scientist, so I can't make the determination of when exactly a fetus or embryo ceases to be a fetus or embryo and officially can be called a person. Whatever line of demarcation is set is what should be abided.

The fact that child abuse exists at all should be proof that smoking or drinking while pregnant is a form of child abuse. The only argument against it is if you believe the fetus doesn't officially earn the status of human being until he/she has been taken from the womb.

Timmy Shoes wrote:
You're mistaking my disposition to value human life less than the more average person for being dismissive. I've already stated, multiple times, that it's not an issue to be ignored. So I'm not sure why people are assuming my stance is to do nothing about it. I still believe it comes down to personal freedoms, though I think educating the public would lessen the extent of the damage. That's what it has to be about; damage control.


It's fine to put the issue in those terms, because the reality is the issue won't completely go away, whether it's made illegal or not. However, they way you've supported your case in the thread borders on ignorance. I'm not saying that you're ignorant, or stupid, but the manner in which you've gone about defending your stance is. You can say you aren't being dismissive, but when you start comparing the issue to larger, more important issues (to you) and insinuating they should take precedence over this particular one, that is being dismissive. When you claim that smoking during pregnancy used to be the norm, and that losing a few babies to retarded mothers isn't putting humanity at risk, you're being dismissive. When you back your stance up with claims like that, it essentially sounds like you're throwing your hands up in the air and giving up. Basically, it sounds like you're giving in to apathy. Just because something can't fully be eradicated or solved doesn't mean we should stop trying. The human race would never move forward if that was the case.


Fri May 13, 2011 9:09 am
Post Re: Is Smoking or Drinking While Pregnant Child Abuse?
firefly wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
This probably boils down to personal freedoms. Do I think it's wrong? Absolutely. But I don't think criminalizing the action would solve anything. Women have the right to suck out their unborn fetus with a vacuum cleaner, and they also have the right to give their child birth defects and complications.


At the point at which they've decided to keep the child, though, do they not have a responsibility? Looking at it another way, if a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman, he is often charged with a crime for killing the unborn child. So there is some legal recognition of the value of the life in the womb--thus even if we maintain a society with legalized abortion, you can conceivably have certain restrictions. Smoking and drinking cause life-long ailments for the children unfortunate enough to be born to utter morons.


How do you know she has chosen to keep the child? Maybe she was on her way to planned parenthood or thinking about going the next day. Cruel, yes. Barbaric, yes. But should it be illegal to smoke whilst pregnant when it's perfectly legal to suck the brains out of that same child or sever it's limbs? That's a thin line to walk.


Fri May 13, 2011 11:14 am
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