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The best place to move if you hate your government? 
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
according to a 07/08 report by the UN, the top five countries to live in are Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, and Ireland, respectively. It was conducted based on quality of life (U.S. came in at 12th, incase people are interested). I wonder if this holds up in 2011? Australia is the most appealing to me, mostly because of the awesome weather (i love the heat). But I'm also Irish-american, so Ireland has a lot of appeal to me as well. Though apparently their economy is in dire straights.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:17 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
I've been reading alot on Austrailia lately, and it does sound like a pretty cool place, (well apart from all the dangerous wildlife anyways! :lol: ) If I could afford to go anyplace on vacation, i'd probably go there. As for that whole country self-destructing thing, I think you're greatly exaggerating things, sure it might happen but it probably won't happen for a LONG time and i'll probably be long dead before it DOES happen. Besides what the hell am I supposed to tell my parents? That i'm gonna drop out of my college because somebody told me our country was gonna colapse? Yeah somehow I don't think that's gonna go over very well :lol: Besides your statements could very well apply to other countries just as well for all you know. How do you know you wouldn't be just as cynical if you were a citizen in another country? If you want to move someplace else, go right ahead, but don't bother trying to convince me to be like you, you're just wasting your time, i'm just not like that and I never will be, so you may as well give up on trying to convert me.


Last edited by Vexer on Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:28 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
History repeats itself, these things are cyclical.

I'm in a really weird place politically right now, but I find it hard to believe that this statement can't be applied to any other country. Bottom line: you're fucked no matter where you go.

Government in general seems to be naturally corrupt. I don't think I need to back that up with anything, do I? Maybe I do. I won't.

In general, I recommend moving to other countries for a few years or even permanently, but doing it because you hate a government feels like a bad reason to me. It's like chasing an ideal; you're never going to encounter a place that doesn't piss you off, especially if your personality leans cynical and skeptical in nature. Sure, you might be happy at first, but in the long run, that won't last.

I don't want to enter a longstanding political debate, especially with someone who's basically already made up their mind. Neither one of us will learn anything. I'm not proud of America right now nor am I proud of our history, but I am proud to be an American. Why? You know, I think the first paragraph or page or maybe even chapter of East of Eden sums it up pretty well, if you alter the context just a bit.

The Netherlands (singular apparently - makes sense) seems nice. My personal vote is Finland, but you don't like the cold, so... there's that. I hope you find what you're looking for, my good sir.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:29 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Pedro wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
History repeats itself, these things are cyclical.

I'm in a really weird place politically right now, but I find it hard to believe that this statement can't be applied to any other country. Bottom line: you're fucked no matter where you go.

Government in general seems to be naturally corrupt. I don't think I need to back that up with anything, do I? Maybe I do. I won't.

In general, I recommend moving to other countries for a few years or even permanently, but doing it because you hate a government feels like a bad reason to me. It's like chasing an ideal; you're never going to encounter a place that doesn't piss you off, especially if your personality leans cynical and skeptical in nature. Sure, you might be happy at first, but in the long run, that won't last.

I don't want to enter a longstanding political debate, especially with someone who's basically already made up their mind. Neither one of us will learn anything. I'm not proud of America right now nor am I proud of our history, but I am proud to be an American. Why? You know, I think the first paragraph or page or maybe even chapter of East of Eden sums it up pretty well, if you alter the context just a bit.

The Netherlands (singular apparently - makes sense) seems nice. My personal vote is Finland, but you don't like the cold, so... there's that. I hope you find what you're looking for, my good sir.


I realize all governments are corrupt. But not all governments start wars at the blink of an eye, nor try to maintain an unmanageable empire. We're war mongering bullies; we swing our dicks around an demolish other country's natural resources for our own benefit. I'm not looking for the perfect government; just one that makes a teensy bit more sense to me.

And Vex, I wasn't trying to convince you or anybody. And I don't mean to imply that US's doomsday is around the corner. But if we don't change our ways soon, it's going to catch up with us a lot sooner than people will expect. (Though probably not within our lifetime. Not while we have so many nukes anyways, hahahaa)

And gosh darnit, why can't these seemingly cool countries be WARMER?!?! Where's global warming when you need it?!?! (joke)


Last edited by Timmy Shoes on Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:33 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
I agree with Pedro, i'm definitely not proud of the terrible things our government has done but there's no government in existence that hasn't done terrible things, and like many citizens i'm proud to be an American and love living in the US in spite of all the atrocities our government has committed. But I know i'm not going to change your opinion and you're certianly not gong to change mine, so all I can say is, I hope you do eventually find what you're looking for, but remember the old saying "the grass always looks greener from the other side"


Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:38 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Come on guys. READ my posts. I'm not naive enough to think that there's some utopian government that I'm going to fall in love with. I just CAN'T abide by our own government's actions, especially in regards to war. I'd rather live in a less "deadly-force," "preemptive strike" type of country...

Governments are always going to be corrupt and suckish, because they're operated by human beings. But there are governments out there that DON'T try to police the world, DON'T engage in risky foreign policy, and DON'T treat war like it's a routine, acceptable thing.

Moreover, Pedro, the "history repeats itself" thing was slanted more towards countries you could describe as an "empire," and you can rest assured that none of the places I'm considering moving to could be described that way.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:41 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Come on guys. READ my posts. I'm not naive enough to think that there's some utopian government that I'm going to fall in love with. I just CAN'T abide by our own government's actions, especially in regards to war. I'd rather live in a less "deadly-force," "preemptive strike" type of country...

This strikes me as dickish. I know a lot of us have pointed out that no government is utopian and I imagine that's not really the point for you, but we're still trying to vocalize the situation as a community. Cut the melodrama and lighten up, just a little!

I mean, did you expect us to be like, "AUSTRALIA MAN, HAVE A GOOD ONE." A lot of us are American and simply want to see where you're coming from. And it's not like we don't get it.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:05 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Pedro wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Come on guys. READ my posts. I'm not naive enough to think that there's some utopian government that I'm going to fall in love with. I just CAN'T abide by our own government's actions, especially in regards to war. I'd rather live in a less "deadly-force," "preemptive strike" type of country...

This strikes me as dickish. I know a lot of us have pointed out that no government is utopian and I imagine that's not really the point for you, but we're still trying to vocalize the situation as a community. Cut the melodrama and lighten up, just a little!

I mean, did you expect us to be like, "AUSTRALIA MAN, HAVE A GOOD ONE." A lot of us are American and simply want to see where you're coming from. And it's not like we don't get it.

Exactly, we understand what you're saying, we just don't necessarily agree with you on everything.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:09 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Pedro wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Come on guys. READ my posts. I'm not naive enough to think that there's some utopian government that I'm going to fall in love with. I just CAN'T abide by our own government's actions, especially in regards to war. I'd rather live in a less "deadly-force," "preemptive strike" type of country...

This strikes me as dickish. I know a lot of us have pointed out that no government is utopian and I imagine that's not really the point for you, but we're still trying to vocalize the situation as a community. Cut the melodrama and lighten up, just a little!

I mean, did you expect us to be like, "AUSTRALIA MAN, HAVE A GOOD ONE." A lot of us are American and simply want to see where you're coming from. And it's not like we don't get it.


I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to vocalize? That all governments suck and I should just deal with it? Not to mention that amongst those of "us" people who said no government is utopian includes me... in fact, it's in my original post.

Why is it so hard to understand that I can't stomach living in a country that treats war like a GAME?

It might not eat away at you guys' conscience, but it really bothers the hell out of me. I don't want to have to pay taxes to help bunch of war mongers blow shit up. And it seems to me like the attitude here is "shrug, it sucks and I don't like it but I have to take care of my own so why should I even pay attention to that stuff?"

I hope this makes it a little more clear as to why I want to move so badly. I mean, you claim to understand but all you've said is "governments suck everywhere, your fucked." So let me emphatically state that I don't expect to find a perfect government anywhere, I'd just prefer to live in a country that doesn't engage in world policing via interventionist foreign policy that incite wars and hatred for the sake of special interests. Are you guys suggesting that all governments are war mongering bullies just like the United States? Because I don't think that's the case.

You don't have to agree with my claims to understand that I don't like war and can't support a government that perpetuates them.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:15 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
I’m an Australian, and whilst I haven’t been to the US, I’m fairly comfortable in saying I’d rather live here than over there. It’s a small country (population wise) with an economy that’s going strong for the time being (and is a lot more stable than the US) and if warm weather and a strong job market are things you’re looking for, then you’re in luck.

But the things you’re rallying against are things that exist here too, and we have a host of our own issues to deal with. We’ve got troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. We’re pretty harsh about drug use. And if freedom is something you value, you might want to take a quick look at the amount of censorship and other restrictions that exists down here.

I can definitely understand where you’re coming from, but I think you’ll have to do a considerable amount of research if you want to be somewhere that appeals to your values. Based off of the bits and pieces you’ve said here, I don’t think you’d be at all happy with they way things are down here.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:48 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
hmmmm, I wonder what a search of "countries that aren't engaged in war" would yield...

TO GOOGLE!

Also, thanks for the info AJ

Anybody know anything about Switzerland?


Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:53 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Timmy, this very topic irks me and not because I think the US Government is almighty and awesome...they're not and in fact I do agree with you there. And not cause, if even though you say you aren't, you are pretty much saying anyone that DARES to be optimistic about the future is a brain-washed sheep and keep pushing your views down our throats.

No, I'm irked that despite you beating your chest and yelling at your mountain. You're not going anywhere. You're going to find some excuse to stay here like your diabetes or family issues or what have you. And you're going to keep bitching about the US but never actually doing anything about it. But if you actually do move and you don't come crawling back in 6 months, I'll buy you a coke.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:32 am
Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Patrick wrote:
Timmy, this very topic irks me and not because I think the US Government is almighty and awesome...they're not and in fact I do agree with you there. And not cause, if even though you say you aren't, you are pretty much saying anyone that DARES to be optimistic about the future is a brain-washed sheep and keep pushing your views down our throats.

No, I'm irked that despite you beating your chest and yelling at your mountain. You're not going anywhere. You're going to find some excuse to stay here like your diabetes or family issues or what have you. And you're going to keep bitching about the US but never actually doing anything about it. But if you actually do move and you don't come crawling back in 6 months, I'll buy you a coke.


Hey, I respect you for calling me out on this. It's one thing to bitch and moan and another thing to actually do the things you say you're going to do. But I'll send you a postcard when I move, and I'll hold you to that offer. Though you're going to have to come to (or send via shipping) that coke to wherever I settle. Preferably a Diet Coke for obvious reasons.

Not quite sure how I pushed my views down anyone's throat, I'm not Fox News. Though I must note something relatively interesting: of the 5 people who have responded to this thread (excluding myself), it seems the only people I didn't piss off (or at least annoy) are the two guys who aren't American.

For the record, having type-1 diabetes (which is a much rarer, much more serious form of the disease than the diabetes most people are familiar with, type-2) does make things like traveling and moving marginally more difficult than someone whose not living with a chronic illness. Regardless, the only thing I've ever used my diabetes as an excuse for is to get out of class or homework assignments. Works every time, too!

I've got my eye on Spain and Portugal, currently. Has anyone been?

Don't think I'm not hopeful. I'm hoping (counting on it, really) that there's a place out there better suited for myself than the United States.

And I guess I should make my intentions a bit clearer. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything other than I dislike it here and I want to move; was looking for insight and suggestions a la dylanfan and AJR's comments. If I had just said, "the U.S. sucks, I want to move" without giving a little insight as to why I feel that way, that would've been much worse. But I stand by the things I said about the general attitude of the American public. We really are the mafia wives of the world.


Last edited by Timmy Shoes on Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:04 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Don't go to Australia; everything there is upside down. They also talk funny and ride around in kangaroo pouches. That's no place I want any part of.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:15 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
I'm liking the fact that Switzerland hasn't been involved in a military war since 1815.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:25 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Quote:
I've got my eye on Spain and Portugal, currently. Has anyone been?


I've been to Portugal twice, sort of. The majority of time was spent in the Azores, a set of Portuguese-owned islands 900 miles west of the mainland; as there's a military base there, the locals on that island (Terceira Island) speak English well enough. I think you can get away without speaking the native tongue somewhat, but I hope you like pork and pork fat for lunch and dinner. There's a lot of that to go around.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:36 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
DylnFan96818 wrote:
Quote:
I've got my eye on Spain and Portugal, currently. Has anyone been?


I've been to Portugal twice, sort of. The majority of time was spent in the Azores, a set of Portuguese-owned islands 900 miles west of the mainland; as there's a military base there, the locals on that island (Terceira Island) speak English well enough. I think you can get away without speaking the native tongue somewhat, but I hope you like pork and pork fat for lunch and dinner. There's a lot of that to go around.



I can speak Spanish decently, hopefully there's a relatively easy transition learning Portuguese since i can already speak Spanish. And don't a lot of Portuguese also speak Spanish? I think I'll be alright in the language department...I hope... And I love pork fat! nom nom nom


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:42 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
I honestly don't know how different Portuguese and Spanish are; maybe I assume too much when I think they're similar due to Brazil being smack dab in South America, but I can't say for sure.

You could also consider South Korea; for non-Korean speakers, head towards Seoul or Pusan. All in all, Korea is cheap to live, Seoul is a mecca for shopping (especially electronics), Pusan is a resort town on the southern coast of the country and the local food is fantastic i.e. bulgogi and kimchee.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:48 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
DylnFan96818 wrote:
I honestly don't know how different Portuguese and Spanish are; maybe I assume too much when I think they're similar due to Brazil being smack dab in South America, but I can't say for sure.

You could also consider South Korea; for non-Korean speakers, head towards Seoul or Pusan. All in all, Korea is cheap to live, Seoul is a mecca for shopping (especially electronics), Pusan is a resort town on the southern coast of the country and the local food is fantastic i.e. bulgogi and kimchee.


Portugal is right smack dab in Spain!!

From my experience working amongst migrant construction workers, it seemed Brazilian guys had an easier time understanding the Mexican and spanish speaking South American guys than vice versa. So I guess that means they will be able to understand me somewhat, but I won't have any idea what they're talking about :lol:

Hhmmm, I have really thought much about Asian countries. I do like asian foods, though.


Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:54 am
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Post Re: The best place to move if you hate your government?
Timmy Shoes wrote:
according to a 07/08 report by the UN, the top five countries to live in are Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, and Ireland, respectively. It was conducted based on quality of life (U.S. came in at 12th, incase people are interested). I wonder if this holds up in 2011? Australia is the most appealing to me, mostly because of the awesome weather (i love the heat). But I'm also Irish-american, so Ireland has a lot of appeal to me as well. Though apparently their economy is in dire straights.


That's a rather old and antiquated report (and it's a measure of HDI, not 'best place to live', which is considerably more subjective). Iceland's economy subsequently nearly collapsed and it is now still in a bit of an unfavorable situation economically. Oh and the weather utterly sucks. So does the food.

Norway isn't too receptive to immigrants, in part because they have a nice supply of natural resources and a small population (since nobody would live in Norway if not for the resources, and a lot of people don't want to live there anyway). Norway's taxes are still rather high, to fund the ridiculous welfare state. Again, sucky weather and even suckier food.

Canada has high tax rates, restrictive anti-free speech laws, collectivist health care, bad weather, and outside of Toronto and Vancouver, bad food. Quebecers are the most racist and arrogant people in the world.

Ireland's economy has also experienced significant hardships, in part due to a housing crisis. Like the others, sucky food and sucky weather.

Australia has decent food thanks to all of the immigrants who go there. I'd consider taking a position in Australia or New Zealand once I get my doctorate (though only Auckland in NZ--the rest is too cool and rainy).

I'd take a position in Singapore, too. Low taxes, awesome food, warm weather, low crime etc.

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Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:18 am
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