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Gay marriage...yay or nay? 
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
johnny larue wrote:
Thank you JJoshay. That was a very clear and articulate defense of your position and one I have been waiting for for 2 days. It was certainly better than most of the slash and burn posts that plagued this thread previously. I don't agree with the premise of burning down the house (if gays can't get married than no one can), but I can sympathize with your feelings of being marginalized in a "free" society.


Hell, I don't agree with that premise either, but it makes about as much sense to me as denying gay people their right to marry. I'm glad I got my point across, even if you still don't quite agree.


Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:20 am
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
ed_metal_head wrote:
Is it gay to get married to a man?


Who knows anymore? Here's how to find out. You, Eduard, book a flight to the United States. Make sure it stops in whatever town is the home of The Sterg and ends in the most liberal part of the country - New England. There, you'll have your pick of four states in which to be wed. After you two lovebirds consumate the thing, let us all know if you feel gay or not. It's a foolproof plan.

johnny larue wrote:
Frankly, Pete, I just don't have the time to respond to all of this. I'm a one man show here (for the most part) and I can't be arguing spousal benefits with you, constitutional law with Ken, and bestiality with JamesK. Nobody is going to come in here and have their opinion changed one way or the other on this issue. We're just going to revolve from civil debate to mockery and worse and back. Most of you fall on the side of pro-gay marriage; I expected that before my first post.

My opinion hasn't changed much and I doubt any of your has either. Turn this topic into a poll instead and let's move on with our lives.


That's fair. I can sympathize with you a bit, it's never easy to be the sole defender of a position, especially when you're being bombarded from all angles of the debate. You're right, no one is going to change their opinion on the issue, but it's still interesting to debate.

johnny larue wrote:
At the end of the day, I believe in the states' rights to determine their own policy where it doesn't conflict with US Constitution. I don't think the constitution protects this particular right so it is up to the states to decide and that the federal judge in the San Francisco was wrong in this case.

If your state, or my state, eventually passes this, I won't be rioting in the street or marching on capitol hill. Despite what you might think, I'm not that much of a fanatic. (Did you note my lack of personal insults throughout?)


I agree 100% with this. It IS a state issue, not a federal one...at least it should be. However, the federal government passed the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in 1996 stating that only a man and woman can be married. They got involved and turned it into more than just a states right issue. Now the advocates of gay marriage can point to that act (which they do...all the time) and ask how it can be strictly a states rights issue. That fact is, it can't anymore because the feds muddied the waters. It's becoming kind of a joke with states like Massachusetts ruling that DOMA is unconsitutional, and states like California ruling that Prop 8 is unconsitutional. I get sick of both sides hiding behind the veil of constitutionality as if the Constitution (state or federal) can't be amended.

All that said, ideally, I think every state should allow it. However, if it is put to a vote and the people shoot it down, then can we really get all that upset? That's how a democracy works, after all. I'd be saddened that people populating our country are so blatantly prejudiced, but what can you really do if the majority doesn't want it? Berating people and telling them how stupid/disgusting they are certainly isn't going to bring them around to your side in any debate.

ram1312 wrote:
I go either way.


So you're bisexual then?


Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:02 am
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
PeachyPete wrote:
ram1312 wrote:
I go either way.


So you're bisexual then?


;)


No...

Really, no.


Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:12 am
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
PeachyPete wrote:
All that said, ideally, I think every state should allow it. However, if it is put to a vote and the people shoot it down, then can we really get all that upset? That's how a democracy works, after all. I'd be saddened that people populating our country are so blatantly prejudiced, but what can you really do if the majority doesn't want it?
Bring it to the courts, because issues of civil rights are rarely solved when put to a vote.


Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:45 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Ken wrote:
PeachyPete wrote:
All that said, ideally, I think every state should allow it. However, if it is put to a vote and the people shoot it down, then can we really get all that upset? That's how a democracy works, after all. I'd be saddened that people populating our country are so blatantly prejudiced, but what can you really do if the majority doesn't want it?
Bring it to the courts, because issues of civil rights are rarely solved when put to a vote.


YES! Prop 8 supporters are arguing that "the people have spoken" and yadda yadda yadda. But wasn't the Constitution made to protect minorities from the majority? I highly doubt that Brown vs Board of Education would have passed as a vote (at least at the time).

In the end, it really comes down to whether or not it is constitutional to limit the rights of only gays and lesbians. Because the Constitution promises that "all men are created equal," it is not. That's the bottom line, and that's why gay marriage should be legal.

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Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
moviemkr7 wrote:
But wasn't the Constitution made to protect minorities from the majority?


No...the constitution was made to protect the people from their government.

moviemkr7 wrote:
Because the Constitution promises that "all men are created equal," it is not.


Actually, "all men are created equal" comes from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. When the Constitution was written, we had slavery and women without the right to vote. It took subsequent amendments to correct those.


Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:49 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
johnny larue wrote:
moviemkr7 wrote:
Because the Constitution promises that "all men are created equal," it is not.


Actually, "all men are created equal" comes from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. When the Constitution was written, we had slavery and women without the right to vote. It took subsequent amendments to correct those.


So it only makes sense to amend the Constitution once again so we will no longer have another group of people being persecuted based on an irrelevant and prejudiced basis.


Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:37 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
JJoshay wrote:
johnny larue wrote:
moviemkr7 wrote:
Because the Constitution promises that "all men are created equal," it is not.


Actually, "all men are created equal" comes from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. When the Constitution was written, we had slavery and women without the right to vote. It took subsequent amendments to correct those.


So it only makes sense to amend the Constitution once again so we will no longer have another group of people being persecuted based on an irrelevant and prejudiced basis.


That would be one way to settle this once and for all. But since the amendment process is extremely arduous and this is such a hotbed issue, I wouldn't expect it to happen in my lifetime.

Not saying it couldn't, I'm just saying that having pockets of allowable gay marriage on a state-by-state basis is the more likely scenario.


Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:56 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
What I genuinely don't understand is why someone would object to another person marrying someone?
It's not like it stops the person objecting getting married, it's not that you're even agreeing with the other person.
I just don't get the reason not to be tolerant and accepting of others.

Maybe I'm just too easy going
Rob


Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:26 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Robert Holloway wrote:
What I genuinely don't understand is why someone would object to another person marrying someone?
It's not like it stops the person objecting getting married, it's not that you're even agreeing with the other person.
I just don't get the reason not to be tolerant and accepting of others.

Maybe I'm just too easy going
Rob


I don't want this to come off too sharply--in part because I agree with you 100%--but don't be obtuse Rob. Almost everyone objects to some things that personally don't affect them because they feel it reflects poorly on our society. Take me and the death penalty. Does it affect me either way whether our society executes convicted felons? No, no it doesn't. But I object to it (and fairly strenuously, at times) because I think that it's beneath us as a society. We're better than that.

Opponents of gay marriage feel exactly the same way. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the same sentiment.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:07 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
JamesKunz wrote:
Robert Holloway wrote:
What I genuinely don't understand is why someone would object to another person marrying someone?
It's not like it stops the person objecting getting married, it's not that you're even agreeing with the other person.
I just don't get the reason not to be tolerant and accepting of others.

Maybe I'm just too easy going
Rob


I don't want this to come off too sharply--in part because I agree with you 100%--but don't be obtuse Rob. Almost everyone objects to some things that personally don't affect them because they feel it reflects poorly on our society. Take me and the death penalty. Does it affect me either way whether our society executes convicted felons? No, no it doesn't. But I object to it (and fairly strenuously, at times) because I think that it's beneath us as a society. We're better than that.

Opponents of gay marriage feel exactly the same way. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the same sentiment.


James

I like your film comments but I struggle here
To compare marriage with execution is a challenge for me

Marriage is a voluntary choice and a right IMHO, execution is not.

Good to discuss :-)

Rob


Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:39 am
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Robert Holloway wrote:
James

I like your film comments but I struggle here
To compare marriage with execution is a challenge for me

Marriage is a voluntary choice and a right IMHO, execution is not.

Good to discuss

Rob


You said "I don't get why people care about gay marriage when it doesn't affect them"

I'm saying that people care about a lot of things that don't affect them because of their conception of what society should be like

Like the death penalty

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Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
JamesKunz wrote:
Robert Holloway wrote:
James

I like your film comments but I struggle here
To compare marriage with execution is a challenge for me

Marriage is a voluntary choice and a right IMHO, execution is not.

Good to discuss

Rob


You said "I don't get why people care about gay marriage when it doesn't affect them"

I'm saying that people care about a lot of things that don't affect them because of their conception of what society should be like

Like the death penalty


A left wing friend of mine (surprise...I'm right wing) who proudly displayed peace signs on his front lawn after the Afghanistan campaign started once quipped to me, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one", to which I replied "Well, if you don't like the war in Afghanistan, don't go."

The level of engagement some people think is "appropriate" in others is often times inversely proportional to the level agreement they have with the cause.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
The level of engagement, in the case that you mentioned, seems to be based on personal freedom in the comment about abortion versus something where the choice is completely out of our hands, as in the Afghanistan War. To counter one with the other seems to miss the point of each.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:49 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
No...the point was that neither topic had a direct personal impact on either party, yet one person was seeming to say it's invalid for party 2 to oppose the one because it had no direct impact, while party 1 actively opposed the other, that had no direct impact. The specific topic is irrelevant here.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:35 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Ah hah, the old abortion horse chestnut

I know several women who have and have not had abortions.

Of the two that did not, they are struggling. The father is long gone, they find it hard to earn money and their lives are a daily grind. They love their kid but it's a sad story in both cases.

The others went on to get married, have kids and are doing great to different degrees.

In both cases the non abortion decision was religious and peer driven. Both women told me at the time that they would like have an abortion.

Like with gay couples, i would argue that women should have their own choice and they don't need me to tell them what to do. if they choose to abort or keep the child, it's their choice.

I dunno, i see people standing on the sidelines passing judgment and telling women what they should and should not do. here's the funny thing. How many self righteous politicians have later been found out to be doing exactly what they preached against?

As always, I don't get it. People stand on the sidelines and moralize and pronounce about society "should be".

Is it so wrong to let someone choose?
Rob


Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:28 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Robert Holloway wrote:
Is it so wrong to let someone choose?


Ask the children of the struggling mothers when they're older.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:56 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Of course now they would say they are glad to be alive, but if their mother had decided to have an abortion they would not exist to answer that questions so it's irrelevant. If my mom had decided to abort me because it was better for her life situation than I would never have existed anyway so how could I be angry about it?

What about all the potential babies that died the last time you masturbated? Or the last time you had sex with a woman and used contraception? It's none of your damn business whether a woman decides to terminate her pregnancy or not.


Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:22 am
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Heff wrote:
Of course now they would say they are glad to be alive, but if their mother had decided to have an abortion they would not exist to answer that questions so it's irrelevant. If my mom had decided to abort me because it was better for her life situation than I would never have existed anyway so how could I be angry about it?

What about all the potential babies that died the last time you masturbated? Or the last time you had sex with a woman and used contraception? It's none of your damn business whether a woman decides to terminate her pregnancy or not.


But you DID exist. And you were terminated. And you never had the chance to be angry.


Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:55 am
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Funny coincidence

I recently reconnected with a work colleague. She lives in Europe and is married to her girlfriend. As she said, she's insanely happy in her union with her partner and marriage was for the two of them, nobody else.

She asked a charmingly simple questions. Why do some people argue that it's OK for a man or woman who is completely unpleasant, even evil to get married, yet they would argue against us?

Good point
Rob


Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:22 am
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