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Gay marriage...yay or nay? 
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Post Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Do you support gay marriage or not? Don't be shy either way...this could lead to an interesting and insightful discussion.

Please don't insult people for their views. It's mean and it doesn't get anywhere.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:27 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Oh I most definitely support it 100 percent, (In fact I actually wrote a 5 page argumentative paper in college for Gay marriage, and I got an A) it's about time that same-sex couples get the same rights as hetero-couples have, all those idiots that whine incessantly about how gay marriage is "damaging" to heterosexual relationships need to have they're heads examined, I truly HATE homophobes with a fucking passion(only people I hate more then them are skinheads/neo-nazis and Islamic terrorists) and if I ever met one in real life i'd more then likely punch them in the face, but anyways i'm happy to see that people are ifnally strating to have common sense on this issue and I REALLY hope that Proposition 8 stays overturned for good.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:54 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
This is America. The notion of making anybody into a second-class citizen of any kind ought to make everybody here want to vomit.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:22 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Well let me be the first to throw up a "nay". I don't see the real "need" for gays and lesbians to get married in today's society. With the state of "marriage" in general, it's not necessary to show their "comittment" to each other, so I'm guessing that their only desire to get married is for financial reasons (tapping into spousal benefits, simplified legal property rights, and such).

So from a property rights perspective, what does marriage provide that a will, power of attorney or other contract does not?

From a spousal benefits perspective, my company's benefits were instated at a time when, for the majority of marriages, one spouse worked and the other spouse stayed at home raising the kids. It was an incentive for an employee to choose a company that offered those benefits. In the majority of same sex couples, there are no kids involved. So why should one "spouse" be incentivized to stay home? Why should I as a company be forced to provide coverage here?

I certainly don't have all of the answers. I have a friend of 25 years who came out about 10 years ago and is oft talking about going to Canada to get married. I think, "more power to ya." I just don't think his employer should be forced to provide those extra spousal benefits.

Just my opinion.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
To me, being married shouldn't have to be a status as if it will be how far you've reached in life. With that being said, they have every right to be married as much as the next crappy hetero couple.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
I'm so liberal when it comes to such things that I make people blush. You want to go fuck farm animals? It won't cross my eyes none. If you're not hurting anyone, you go right ahead and do what you gotta do. It's not like people can pick--or control--what turns them on, so why make such a big deal about it? Again, as long as it involves consenting adults. Polygamy, gay marriage, etc.: go for it.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:12 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Wow, "I don't feel the need...."

I live in the Bay Area and many of my friends are gay. Of course I'm a yes.

It's a shame on this country that in 2010 this has not been addressed. I have discussed this with many nay sayers and never heard a single cogent reason as to why it would hurt them if two gay people got married. Why do gay people need a reason beyond the fact that they love each other?

Very sad
Rob


Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Speaking of California, I don't know if anybody noticed, but Prop 8 was declared unconstitutional. By a conservative judge to boot.

A lot of the argument against gay marriage comes from the same group that thinks this is a Christian country established by a Christian constitution. Which is silly.

That is what I don't tolerate - voluntary ignorance / close-mindedness. There is no excuse, and it ends up hurting everyone.

I wish Americans knew how conservative the US is. On an international scale, Obama isn't even left of center.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:37 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
johnny larue wrote:
Well let me be the first to throw up a "nay". I don't see the real "need" for gays and lesbians to get married in today's society. With the state of "marriage" in general, it's not necessary to show their "comittment" to each other, so I'm guessing that their only desire to get married is for financial reasons (tapping into spousal benefits, simplified legal property rights, and such).

So from a property rights perspective, what does marriage provide that a will, power of attorney or other contract does not?

From a spousal benefits perspective, my company's benefits were instated at a time when, for the majority of marriages, one spouse worked and the other spouse stayed at home raising the kids. It was an incentive for an employee to choose a company that offered those benefits. In the majority of same sex couples, there are no kids involved. So why should one "spouse" be incentivized to stay home? Why should I as a company be forced to provide coverage here?

I certainly don't have all of the answers. I have a friend of 25 years who came out about 10 years ago and is oft talking about going to Canada to get married. I think, "more power to ya." I just don't think his employer should be forced to provide those extra spousal benefits.

Just my opinion.


Do straight couples only marry for financial reasons? Your argument is flawed on the basis that it supposes gay couples are so different then straight couples. If I get married someday, I'm not gonna do it so that "I can have access to your 401k", I'm gonna do it because I love the person. I fail to see how gay couples are inherently different from straight couples in any aspect besides gender.

If the employer shouldn't be pushed to provide (in you example outdated) spousal benefits, then why should they pay (outdated) spousal benefits to straight couples?

Just my opinion.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:09 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
JJoshay wrote:
Do straight couples only marry for financial reasons?


Some do. Ever hear of "gold diggers" (on both sides of the gender spectrum)?

JJoshay wrote:
If I get married someday, I'm not gonna do it so that "I can have access to your 401k", I'm gonna do it because I love the person.


I have a cousin who is about 20 years my senior who has been living, unmarried, with the same girl for the last 25 years. Nobody doubts their love for each other, including themselves. They don't need a marriage license to prove it. "Aha," you'll say, "but unlike the gays and lesbians, they have the choice to get married." which is not my point. My point is they don't need a marriage license to prove their love. I do grant you that my cousin has a choice to marry....as do gays and lesbians. They have the same choice I have: to marry a person of the opposite sex. They, technically, have the same rights I do. I don't have the right to marry another male, either. (I understand that this is a "pithy" argument, but under the rule of law, it is sound.)

Robert Holloway wrote:
Why do gay people need a reason beyond the fact that they love each other?


So to extend your argument, two hetero people should be able to marry as long as they love each other. Even if, say, one was a forty-five year old man and the other a seven year old girl (with her parent's consent, of course). Or perhaps a loving, committed man and woman who happen to be brother and sister. (I know Mr. Kunz is cool with these scenarios...if you are too then I have a better idea where you're coming from.)

JJoshay wrote:
Your argument is flawed on the basis that it supposes gay couples are so different then straight couples.


Part of the judge's opinion when he sought to overturn Prop. 8 was that he thought that the amendment was inferring that a "straight" marriage was inherently superior to a "gay" marriage. And I would say that straight marriages are superior for this reason: my wife and I can do everything in our relationship that a gay couple can do. A gay couple can do everything in their relationship that me and my wife can do save one: generate biological offspring. I'm not saying this to be a jerk or inflammatory, but it's the truth: in this particular respect, heterosexual unions are superior to homosexual unions. I'm not saying that a homosexual partnership has no value, or that the best homosexual couple is still worse than the worst heterosexual couple. I'm saying on balance that the heterosexual relationship is biologically superior. The judge was wrong.

Also, it was the will of the voters of California for this amendment to their constitution. I don't recall anything in the US constitution that guaranteed the right of gay marriage. Assembly, bear arms, free speech...those were in there. Gay marriage is not anywhere in the "Bill of Rights".


Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
So to extend your argument, two hetero people should be able to marry as long as they love each other. Even if, say, one was a forty-five year old man and the other a seven year old girl (with her parent's consent, of course). Or perhaps a loving, committed man and woman who happen to be brother and sister. (I know Mr. Kunz is cool with these scenarios...if you are too then I have a better idea where you're coming from.)



Ok, that seriously has to be one of the WORST arguments i've ever heard, incest is ILLEGAL for a good reason(the whole "inbreeding" thing, though i've heard some people that say they actually prefer incest to gay marriage, people like that shouldn't be allowed to exist! :evil: ) Whereas gay marriage is not, comparing incest to gay marriage is not only despicable, but it's incredibly ignorant and asinine :roll:
Also the reason why gay marriage isn't in the Constitution is mainly because NO ONE even teased the thought of the very idea of the same sex marrying back in the 17th century, and by your logic, if it isn't in the constitution then it's techinically not "illegal" either, so either way your argument dosen't hold much water.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:58 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
johnny larue wrote:
JJoshay wrote:
Do straight couples only marry for financial reasons?


Some do. Ever hear of "gold diggers" (on both sides of the gender spectrum)?


Oh, your funny.

johnny (in the wrong) larue wrote:
Robert Holloway wrote:
Why do gay people need a reason beyond the fact that they love each other?


So to extend your argument, two hetero people should be able to marry as long as they love each other. Even if, say, one was a forty-five year old man and the other a seven year old girl (with her parent's consent, of course). Or perhaps a loving, committed man and woman who happen to be brother and sister. (I know Mr. Kunz is cool with these scenarios...if you are too then I have a better idea where you're coming from.)


Whats wrong with a man or woman older then another man or woman marrying? Jesus christ its two men or two women not a man, a bear and his horse. Did you only marry so you and your wife could afford the house? Your argument here is disgusting, and its disquieting to think that there are people who seriously think like this.

johnny larue wrote:
JJoshay wrote:
Your argument is flawed on the basis that it supposes gay couples are so different then straight couples.


Part of the judge's opinion when he sought to overturn Prop. 8 was that he thought that the amendment was inferring that a "straight" marriage was inherently superior to a "gay" marriage. And I would say that straight marriages are superior for this reason: my wife and I can do everything in our relationship that a gay couple can do. A gay couple can do everything in their relationship that me and my wife can do save one: generate biological offspring. I'm not saying this to be a jerk or inflammatory, but it's the truth: in this particular respect, heterosexual unions are superior to homosexual unions. I'm not saying that a homosexual partnership has no value, or that the best homosexual couple is still worse than the worst heterosexual couple. I'm saying on balance that the heterosexual relationship is biologically superior. The judge was wrong.


What about straight couples who cannot have children? Does it really fucking matter? So what if a couple can't have kids? Why the hell is the government getting involved in such things as marriage when there are people dying in a country we don't belong in and aren't accomplishing anything in and the economy is shot? Does this make any sense, that simply because of the misread opinions of men who died thousands of years ago, people are having to fight for the same rights as others when being treated equal is also a principle taught in the book written by a bunch of sandy-assed blokes thousands of years ago?

Your opinion makes no sense, its like you've somehow stuck homosexuals in a box where logic is not wanted. They're not less then but they are, they have "all the same rights as straight couples" yet for some reason don't deserve to have... all the same... rights as... straight couples... :?: Does this make sense to anyone else either?

Here's the deal, YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MARRY WHO YOU WANT, true fact. Being gay or straight is not like signing up for a political party, its who a person is. You didn't choose to be straight and I didn't choose to be gay, it makes no sense to withhold a persons simple rights such as being allowed to marry. We're not asking to be allowed to murder people, just each other, slowly, through the union of marriage. If its such a minor deal to you, as you said, its apparently unimportant, then why is it such a big deal whether its allowed? I don't see a bunch of gay couples in California running to the state house screaming, "I get the right to his car!"


Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:13 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
johnny larue wrote:

Robert Holloway wrote:
Why do gay people need a reason beyond the fact that they love each other?


So to extend your argument, two hetero people should be able to marry as long as they love each other. Even if, say, one was a forty-five year old man and the other a seven year old girl (with her parent's consent, of course). Or perhaps a loving, committed man and woman who happen to be brother and sister. (I know Mr. Kunz is cool with these scenarios...if you are too then I have a better idea where you're coming from.)


Oh dear, what can I say to this except, oh dear.

Rob


Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:32 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Robert Holloway wrote:
johnny larue wrote:

Robert Holloway wrote:
Why do gay people need a reason beyond the fact that they love each other?


So to extend your argument, two hetero people should be able to marry as long as they love each other. Even if, say, one was a forty-five year old man and the other a seven year old girl (with her parent's consent, of course). Or perhaps a loving, committed man and woman who happen to be brother and sister. (I know Mr. Kunz is cool with these scenarios...if you are too then I have a better idea where you're coming from.)


Oh dear, what can I say to this except, oh dear.

Rob


Oh dear is right!


Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:44 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
America isn't--or shouldn't be--in the business of asking why things should be legal. Legal is the default position. A convincing case has to be built as to why something should be illegal, in a way that doesn't step on individual liberties or create inequalities between citizens.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:33 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
I support gay rights and thus support gay marriage. I've said this elsewhere.

My take is that those who use the argument regarding two brothers marrying one another for the financial benefits of marriage are really attempting to soften their stance that gays are somewhat lesser people. To bring quantitative analysis to marriage is ludicrous, the kind of Dark Ages conservatism that supports suppression of homosexuals using seemingly benign language. Wouldn't it be more honest to jump on the moral horse and call homosexuality an abomination than to couch it in legalese?


Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:33 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
moviemkr7 wrote:
Please don't insult people for their views. It's mean and it doesn't get anywhere.


Vexer wrote:
Whereas gay marriage is not, comparing incest to gay marriage is not only despicable, but it's incredibly ignorant and asinine :roll:


JJoshay wrote:
Your argument here is disgusting, and its disquieting to think that there are people who seriously think like this.


OK gentlemen...I knew I was stepping into the hornet's nest on this one. The topic of this thread was "Gay marriage...yay or nay?" not "Gay marriage...why it rocks!". It is apparent that most of you can't have a mature discussion on this based on logic. You'll fall back to emotional arguments that can't be argued with because, at the end of the day, love is the ultimate emotion and to many, that's what this argument boils down to. I have not berated your arguments, merely given counterpoints and personal examples to try to support a point of view. Can you say the same?

Obviously this is more personal to some of you; I respect that. I'll just take this as a life lesson on these boards that when a "candid" discussion is requested on a sensitive topic, I think twice before putting forth a dissenting view. Intolerance indeed.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:35 pm
Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Vexer wrote:
Also the reason why gay marriage isn't in the Constitution is mainly because NO ONE even teased the thought of the very idea of the same sex marrying back in the 17th century, and by your logic, if it isn't in the constitution then it's techinically not "illegal" either, so either way your argument dosen't hold much water.


Actually, I'm not arguing that it's illegal based on the US Constitution. I'm arguing that it's not provided for OR against in the U.S. Constitution and is thus under the purview of the states to decide it's legality or illegality on an individual basis, like the rest of our laws. It's called "states' rights." California passed a law governing their state; it was argued in federal court that is was unconstitutional. I don't think Prop 8 was unconstitutional. That, of course, will be up to the court of appeals and potentially the US Supreme Court to decide.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:53 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
I tend to stay away from arguments like this because people get too heated to quickly but I will say this. "Homophobia" has to be one of the dumbest words created. There is a distinct difference between disagreeing with someone from a moral perspective and actually being "afraid" of them. It's a word that's insulting to me because it's basically exaggerating a respected viewpoint, that being that gays should not marry due to moral/religious reasons, into that all people that don't support gays are just afraid of gay people.

It also seems the ones that are for gay marriage are more bigoted than the ones against it. In any argument I've had concerning this, the words "you're just a homophobe" are thrown around when I respectfully state I just don't support it. I don't hate gay people, but I was raised in a Christian home and I still adhere to what I was taught. I don't see why this claim is met with so much hatred from the other side (You want proof? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMvviFbkf0). Honest, respectful point of view that the judge (the slimy Perez Hilton) a day later criticized to no end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI1u6bZ39YE). This just disgusts me.

Sure, that's just one case, but it's pretty bad.

Here's another interesting story: I go to a very liberal university. About a year ago I was taking a Communications class (the topic being "Sex and Violence in the Media"). Throughout the semester my professor would show us random clips and have my class be the judge if it should be on TV or not (or if it was subliminal messaging). One class he showed us about a ten minute segment of the TV show "Queer as Folk". Out of about 250 people in the class (although, only half the class showed up because it was a pretty weak class, so let's say 125-150), my professor counted 48 people (his words) that walked out during the video. As a reward for the ones who stayed to watch it (such as me and my friend), he gave the answer to one of the extra credit questions he would be putting on the exam pertaining to the content we had just watched. That's pretty remarkable when a largely liberal school has a class in which about 1/3 of the people walk out (with a good number looking down at the floor the entire time) during only a ten minute segment in which the content being displayed is that concerning the homosexual community. My professor was absolutely livid with those people who had left, saying things like he didn't know what the problem was and that he was very upset. Why? If people don't want to subject themselves to that, they have the option to walk out. It's their choice. Just like choosing to be against it. If you're going to support a movement that basically says "don't hate us, support us" such as the gay community, at least have the respectfulness to hear the other side of the argument without attacking it so ruthlessly.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:54 pm
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Post Re: Gay marriage...yay or nay?
Well Dan, not ALL Christians think being gay is morally "wrong" I should know since my parents are both Christian, but they don't have any problems with people being gay whatsoever, I never was one for religion and I never really felt like following any of my "teachings" in Christianity, but I am at least grateful that I was never taught by my church that being gay was "wrong" Also about Queer Eye, that wasn't a very smart test-just cause people walked out on it dosen't mean they were morally offended by it, some people might've walked out because they just plain didn't like the show-not everyone who has liberal beliefs likes that show. My mother and sister LOVED that show but I personally couldn't stand it and I was very glad when it got cancelled, if I were in that class I definitely would've walked out myself so I wouldn't have endure that overrated show.


Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:15 am
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