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Van Halen 
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Post Re: Van Halen
One area I will give VH points in is that unlike Aerosmith (who more or less adapted to the public as proven by "I don't Wanna miss a thing") they followed the path they wanted to. The album they recorded with Cherone sucked. But at least they tried to break out of the holding pattern they were in.

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Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:04 pm
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Post Re: Van Halen
Van Halen is good, in limited doses. He's got crazy chops, but I mean, there's only so much jerking off one can listen too. Lord knows Van Halen likes to jerk his gherkin.


Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:13 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Van Halen is good, in limited doses. He's got crazy chops, but I mean, there's only so much jerking off one can listen too. Lord knows Van Halen likes to jerk his gherkin.
The only problem I have with statements like this is that they're incorrect as hell.

I realize Ed originally rose to fame on the strength of "Eruption," which is a 1:42 string of his best licks and tricks circa 1978. An ignoramus could be forgiven for assuming that it's Van Halen in a nutshell. But if you listen to other Van Halen stuff, you see a couple trends emerging:

1. Outside of the first album, the majority of the guitar solos tend to be pretty short ("Beautiful Girls," "Unchained," "Jump" etc.). Some of them are even quite simple ("Runnin' With the Devil," "And the Cradle Will Rock," "Best of Both Worlds," etc.). Compare to guitarists like Billy Gibbons or Cream-era Clapton, who spend much of their time playing extended leads but never get shit for it.
2. Ed is a very articulate and inventive rhythm guitarist. He gets focused on so much for his innovative lead playing that people overlook that he is quite well-rounded and has contributed many riffs to the rock lexicon. He deserves the same recognition as other riff-masters like Iommi and the Young brothers.


Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:41 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Ok, maybe my statements were a little short sighted. But I'd contend that Ed's guitar work was/is the only redeeming quality of Van Halen as a collective band. Still only tolerable in controlled doses.


Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:58 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Ok, maybe my statements were a little short sighted. But I'd contend that Ed's guitar work was/is the only redeeming quality of Van Halen as a collective band. Still only tolerable in controlled doses.
Not even close. Try listening.


Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:24 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Crappy songs with crappy singers and a crappy rhythm section. Some crafty guitar stuff, though.

I could listen to Sabbath for hours on end, but if I had to listen to Van Halen for an extended period of time, I'd just off myself.


Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:50 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Crappy songs with crappy singers and a crappy rhythm section. Some crafty guitar stuff, though.

I could listen to Sabbath for hours on end, but if I had to listen to Van Halen for an extended period of time, I'd just off myself.

I could apply the same "off myself" thing to grunge, maybe that's why Kurt killed himself, because he started to hate his own music(I kid I kid :lol: )


Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:32 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Vexer wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Crappy songs with crappy singers and a crappy rhythm section. Some crafty guitar stuff, though.

I could listen to Sabbath for hours on end, but if I had to listen to Van Halen for an extended period of time, I'd just off myself.

I could apply the same "off myself" thing to grunge, maybe that's why Kurt killed himself, because he started to hate his own music(I kid I kid :lol: )


Didja hear about the last thing to go through Kurt's head before he killed himself?



[Reveal] Spoiler:
The roof of his mouth

:lol:


Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:28 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Crappy songs with crappy singers and a crappy rhythm section. Some crafty guitar stuff, though.

I could listen to Sabbath for hours on end, but if I had to listen to Van Halen for an extended period of time, I'd just off myself.

I'm not going to begrudge anybody their feelings, but you're doing a piss-poor job of explaining your opinions. You're attempting to justify them on technical grounds, but pretty much everything you've said has convinced me that you're not a terrific judge in that department.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:02 am
Post Re: Van Halen
Alex Van Halen is shit; his stuff is so basic and simplistic, it's only good for teaching new drummers how to play elementary crap-o-la. He wouldn't know a rudiment if he got hit upside the head with a six stroke roll. For fucks sake, I can't even think of a Van Halen song that isn't in a 4/4 time signature...

Has anyone ever noticed how practically every Van Halen song is a misogynistic rant that degrades woman? At least in terms of the lyricism...

Michael Anthony is a mediocre bassist at best; by no means anything special (or even worthwhile). Want some evidence? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYg3TJCmZKc&feature=related If you've never picked up a bass in your life, you could learn that in 10 minutes...

The only redeemable quality of the band Van Halen was Eddie Van Halen's guitar work.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:25 am
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Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Didja hear about the last thing to go through Kurt's head before he killed himself?
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The roof of his mouth

:lol:


No. But I did hear about the last thing to go through John Denver's head.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
The propeller!

_________________
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Cinema is a matter of what's in the frame and what's out-Martin Scorsese.

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Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:09 pm
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Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Alex Van Halen is shit; his stuff is so basic and simplistic, it's only good for teaching new drummers how to play elementary crap-o-la.
Meaningless. Rock and roll is built on basic, simple beats. It's a function of the genre. Most of the legendary rock songs center around these very beats.

If you're going to criticize rock drummers for utilizing basic, simple beats, you might as well criticize rock guitarists for using power chords.

Quote:
He wouldn't know a rudiment if he got hit upside the head with a six stroke roll.
Vocab drop in a vain effort to imbue your empty criticisms with an air of academia. Nice try.

You're not just suggesting that AVH is unremarkable. You're suggesting that he's incompetent to the point of unprofessionalism, which is plainly untrue. I can't think of any professional rock drummers, including the ones I don't like, who don't at least know their way through the genre essentials. Furthermore, AVH has a knack for working in different styles--funk, boogie, reggae, etc.--while keeping one foot planted in the steady pulse that defines rock drumming, which is a skill that many rock drummers don't have, and which has earned him accolades even outside the rock genre.

Quote:
For fucks sake, I can't even think of a Van Halen song that isn't in a 4/4 time signature...
Also meaningless. 4/4 is the most common time signature in popular music and has been for centuries. If you want to wager that there's a significant correlation between skilled music and music that isn't in 4/4, I would happily bet against you.

Quote:
Has anyone ever noticed how practically every Van Halen song is a misogynistic rant that degrades woman? At least in terms of the lyricism...
I doubt you would give a shit about this if somebody weren't pushing you to back up your argument, but no. Not every song is about girls, and the ones that are about girls are no more objectifying than the vast majority of rock lyrics. If anything, David Lee Roth paints himself as a bigger bimbo than anybody, making him uncommonly self-aware in a genre mostly known for taking itself too seriously. Those who criticize or attempt ape his schtick are missing the rather obvious irony. As for Sammy Hagar's lyrics, they're essentially a balance between lame attempts at Roth-style wordplay and genuine attempts at pop sincerity, which is at least half-respectable for people who are into that sort of thing.

Quote:
Michael Anthony is a mediocre bassist at best; by no means anything special (or even worthwhile). Want some evidence? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYg3TJCmZKc&feature=related If you've never picked up a bass in your life, you could learn that in 10 minutes...
Nobody ever claimed that Michael Anthony's bass playing was anything special, but he is eminently competent and a hell of a vocalist. And if you think that bass playing needs to be showy in order to be good, you (being nice here) have a lot to learn about bass playing and playing in favor of the song in general.

Quote:
The only redeemable quality of the band Van Halen was Eddie Van Halen's guitar work.
Does
repeating things over and over again makes them true? We'll find out at 11!


Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
You know what...I just wished that Eddie kept his mouth shut on the songs. I've never liked the background vocals on any of their songs ever.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:37 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Ken wrote:
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Alex Van Halen is shit; his stuff is so basic and simplistic, it's only good for teaching new drummers how to play elementary crap-o-la.
Meaningless. Rock and roll is built on basic, simple beats. It's a function of the genre. Most of the legendary rock songs center around these very beats.

If you're going to criticize rock drummers for utilizing basic, simple beats, you might as well criticize rock guitarists for using power chords.

Quote:
He wouldn't know a rudiment if he got hit upside the head with a six stroke roll.
Vocab drop in a vain effort to imbue your empty criticisms with an air of academia. Nice try.

You're not just suggesting that AVH is unremarkable. You're suggesting that he's incompetent to the point of unprofessionalism, which is plainly untrue. I can't think of any professional rock drummers, including the ones I don't like, who don't at least know their way through the genre essentials. Furthermore, AVH has a knack for working in different styles--funk, boogie, reggae, etc.--while keeping one foot planted in the steady pulse that defines rock drumming, which is a skill that many rock drummers don't have, and which has earned him accolades even outside the rock genre.

Quote:
For fucks sake, I can't even think of a Van Halen song that isn't in a 4/4 time signature...
Also meaningless. 4/4 is the most common time signature in popular music and has been for centuries. If you want to wager that there's a significant correlation between skilled music and music that isn't in 4/4, I would happily bet against you.

Quote:
Has anyone ever noticed how practically every Van Halen song is a misogynistic rant that degrades woman? At least in terms of the lyricism...
I doubt you would give a shit about this if somebody weren't pushing you to back up your argument, but no. Not every song is about girls, and the ones that are about girls are no more objectifying than the vast majority of rock lyrics. If anything, David Lee Roth paints himself as a bigger bimbo than anybody, making him uncommonly self-aware in a genre mostly known for taking itself too seriously. Those who criticize or attempt ape his schtick are missing the rather obvious irony. As for Sammy Hagar's lyrics, they're essentially a balance between lame attempts at Roth-style wordplay and genuine attempts at pop sincerity, which is at least half-respectable for people who are into that sort of thing.

Quote:
Michael Anthony is a mediocre bassist at best; by no means anything special (or even worthwhile). Want some evidence? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYg3TJCmZKc&feature=related If you've never picked up a bass in your life, you could learn that in 10 minutes...
Nobody ever claimed that Michael Anthony's bass playing was anything special, but he is eminently competent and a hell of a vocalist. And if you think that bass playing needs to be showy in order to be good, you (being nice here) have a lot to learn about bass playing and playing in favor of the song in general.

Quote:
The only redeemable quality of the band Van Halen was Eddie Van Halen's guitar work.
Does
repeating things over and over again makes them true? We'll find out at 11!



This reminds me of the time I had an argument with somebody who was trying to convince me AC/DC was as musically skilled as Rush....

So I try to make my points, and turns out I'm only full of air; well, find me a song where AVH uses a rudiment, and I'll secede my argument. The single stroke roll doesn't count, though.

Personally, I think it highly probable that Eddie surrounded himself by less talented musicians to make himself look that much better.

Think about it. Your key words to describe EVH's guitar as "articulate" and "innovative," but by no stretch of the imagination could you apply these adjectives to other members of the band.

If a band is only as good as it's drummer, then VH is mediocre. Sure, he can keep a steady beat going, but he never branches out, never does anything overtly creative (he's more creative at actually making drums as opposed to playing them, lmaoooo). Plus comparing power chords to basic beats is like comparing apples to oranges. Melodies and rhythm are on opposite sites of the spectrum; when they come together well they make awesome noise. Moreover, there's a difference between using power chords (or for arguments sake, a basic drum beat) and using them well.

The 4/4 comment was more to demonstrate the fact that from a rhythmic perspective they never branch out or do anything special.

The only purpose other members of the band serve is to provide a solid enough backdrop for Eddie's guitar.

And I'm not just talking about having chops, I'm talking about intrinsic, natural rhythmic ability. There's nothing wrong with simplicity if it's done well, but the rhythm section simply isn't done well...

Who knows, maybe I have too high expectations for drummers and bassists since I grew up listening to Rush. Maybe that's why I come down hard on unthoughtful lyricism as well...

Additionally, I'm not trying to prove myself via repetition. Just stating my opinions....as least keep it civil, fanboy.

When I listen to music, I look for the stuff that's going to WOW me. I'm none too easily impressed, which is one of the reasons I think Van Halen is one of the most overrated bands of all time. The only thing that stands out is some crafty guitar stuff. It's too prototypical, formulaic 80's rock sound to really do anything for me.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:04 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
This reminds me of the time I had an argument with somebody who was trying to convince me AC/DC was as musically skilled as Rush....
Which would mean you've failed to notice that I'm not discussing Van Halen on any other band's terms.

Quote:
So I try to make my points, and turns out I'm only full of air; well, find me a song where AVH uses a rudiment, and I'll secede my argument. The single stroke roll doesn't count, though.
First demonstrate that the difference between a good drummer and a bad one boils down to the quantity of rudiments in their songs.

Quote:
Personally, I think it highly probable that Eddie surrounded himself by less talented musicians to make himself look that much better.
I'm pretty sure Eddie was around Alex because Alex popped out first.

Quote:
Think about it. Your key words to describe EVH's guitar as "articulate" and "innovative," but by no stretch of the imagination could you apply these adjectives to other members of the band.
So?

Quote:
If a band is only as good as it's drummer, then VH is mediocre.
If this statement were true (and it isn't), Van Halen would be entirely competent.

Quote:
Sure, he can keep a steady beat going, but he never branches out, never does anything overtly creative (he's more creative at actually making drums as opposed to playing them, lmaoooo).
First, he was crappy, then he was just mediocre, and now he isn't creative enough. Make up your mind.

Quote:
Plus comparing power chords to basic beats is like comparing apples to oranges. Melodies and rhythm are on opposite sites of the spectrum; when they come together well they make awesome noise.
Comparing power chords and basic beats is comparing apples and apples in terms of the basic technique, which is precisely what you were arguing about.

Quote:
The 4/4 comment was more to demonstrate the fact that from a rhythmic perspective they never branch out or do anything special.


Quote:
The only purpose other members of the band serve is to provide a solid enough backdrop for Eddie's guitar.
The only purpose is to make music. The fact that part of the music includes the celebrated guitar playing of Eddie Van Halen is incidental.

Quote:
And I'm not just talking about having chops, I'm talking about intrinsic, natural rhythmic ability. There's nothing wrong with simplicity if it's done well, but the rhythm section simply isn't done well...
Perhaps you might demonstrate some actual cases in which the rhythm section fails to stand up to the job.

Quote:
Who knows, maybe I have too high expectations for drummers and bassists since I grew up listening to Rush. Maybe that's why I come down hard on unthoughtful lyricism as well...
Ever stop to think that Neil's drumming and Geddy's bass playing work well in the context of Rush because it's Rush and not a different band?

Quote:
Additionally, I'm not trying to prove myself via repetition. Just stating my opinions....as least keep it civil, fanboy.
Weren't you the one who was snorkeling Cobain's sausage in another thread, or was that somebody else?

Quote:
When I listen to music, I look for the stuff that's going to WOW me. I'm none too easily impressed, which is one of the reasons I think Van Halen is one of the most overrated bands of all time. The only thing that stands out is some crafty guitar stuff.
I'm well past the point in my life where I rate music based on how technically brilliant the musicians are.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:29 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Ken wrote:
Additionally, I'm not trying to prove myself via repetition. Just stating my opinions....as least keep it civil, fanboy.
Weren't you the one who was snorkeling Cobain's sausage in another thread, or was that somebody else?
[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I wasn't snorkeling anybody's sausage, I was talking about why grunge, so Cobain came up. I'm not even that big of a NIrvana fan.

I'm going to take it out on a whim here and assume that your list of "legendary rock songs" is probably a lot different from mine and features a lot more pop-oriented artist. Nothing wrong with that, to each his own.

I said the argument reminded me of a different one I had, I didn't say they were equal.

"A band is only as good as its drummer" is not a statement I've made up; it's a pretty common phrase in musical lexicon.

I mean, shit, it seems to me like 90% of the people who like Van Halen only like the David Lee Roth era, and denounce the rest as crap. To my knowledge, your the only person who defends them beyond the DLR era.

The point isn't to just make music, man. It's supposed to be about making GOOD music.

It's not about technical brilliance. It's about making sounds that work well together and appease the ears.

This isn't really ever going to reach a conclusion, so I'm going to say "to each his own" and stand by my personal opinion that Van Halen sucks as an overall product. The supporting components don't do a good enough job to warrant more than 10 minutes of listening. For me at least.


Last edited by Timmy Shoes on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:41 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
That's fair enough. I don't take issue with your dislike of the band in itself, though you've made other arguments that I find highly questionable.

Which is odd, because, Van Halen aside, you've also mentioned Black Sabbath and Rush, which are also favorites of mine.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:44 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Ken wrote:
Which is odd, because, Van Halen aside, you've also mentioned Black Sabbath and Rush, which are also favorites of mine.


I've heard this a lot, people wonder why I dislike Van Halen when I rock other bands of somewhat similar ilk (relatively speaking). Idk man, it's hard to articulate upon, it's like a feel thing.


Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:54 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
Ken wrote:
Which is odd, because, Van Halen aside, you've also mentioned Black Sabbath and Rush, which are also favorites of mine.


I've heard this a lot, people wonder why I dislike Van Halen when I rock other bands of somewhat similar ilk (relatively speaking). Idk man, it's hard to articulate upon, it's like a feel thing.

Well that was an "interesting" discussion, as for me I like Van Halen but do find them to be overrated, and i'm one of the few people who actually prefers the Hagar era to the Roth era(I don't think VHIII was THAT bad either, it did have some decent songs like Fire In The Hole, Without You, A Year To The Day and Dirty Water Dog)


Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:10 pm
Post Re: Van Halen
Timmy Shoes wrote:
I've heard this a lot, people wonder why I dislike Van Halen when I rock other bands of somewhat similar ilk (relatively speaking). Idk man, it's hard to articulate upon, it's like a feel thing.
Ultimately, the point of music is to make you feel things. And, as with movies, it takes specialized knowledge to pick music apart for the elements that cause psychological stimulation--not cerebral stimulation, which is easy to figure out, but more primitive, reward zone type stimulation.

Movies make use of images, and I think images are easier to dissect than sound. It's easier to demonstrate what's doing what and when it's doing it. It's easier to gather that specialized knowledge. With music, most people--likely everyone here--are up the creek. It's hard to articulate a feeling.


Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:30 am
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